DAWs updated/revisited - and tutorials on the use of DAWs

[Dave2002]

Here is a new list detailing some of the DAWs which are currently available - https://www.musicradar.com/tuition/t...d-today-238905

DAW stands for Digital Audio Workstation. I still can't really figure out how these are used, though I think it depends on the users. Some may use piano style keyboards for input, others may use a computer interface. Some may use sampled sounds in their productions, others may use generated sounds. Some may permit find control over sounds including envelopes, while others may "simply" allow combinations of sounds with different lengths and pitches, etc., etc. I'm not sure if any of these can generate a standard music "script" from a performance on a piano keyboard (which could be very useful for some people, and a very quick way to get a production under way)

Are there any tutorials showing how DAWs might actually be used - and I don't just mean tutorials showing how to use a particular one, though maybe that's one way of getting into these things? For video editing I watched lots of tutorials on how to use different video editing tools for various techniques/processes, so maybe I need to do the same for DAWs.

[MrGongGong]

What do you want to DO with sound?

(your "standard music script" is a MIDI file, I think)

[Dave2002]

Not really sure. Could be many things.

I would like to be able to:

1. Play pieces on a keyboard, and have them converted to some form of music notation quickly.

2. Play pieces on other instruments, and have them converted to some form of music notation quickly.

3. Create multi part arrangements, and then be able to realise them, and play along with them with other instruments - either as an individual, or in a group.

4. Be able to mix in other aspects - unusual sounds, work in different "tonalities" - doesn't have to be "standard" scales, pitches etc.

5. Be able to realise the sound of a piece written in parts based on a score of some sort.

If I tried a few DAWs I might have better ideas of what I might want to do.

[Richard Barrett]

Notation is generally the weak link in any DAW because it's assumed that many users won't be bothering with notation at all, and those who do won't expect very much from it. It seems to me that to do all the things you mention in your post you're exceeding the brief of a DAW. To your first two points: playing notes on a MIDI keyboard and having them converted into notation: no problem; recording notes from another instrument of course requires the software to recognise the pitches it's playing before converting them into notation and this is a process that generally requires some calibration and editing. Points 3-5 I don't really understand. I have the impression what you're after is a single piece of software which is supposed to take over from you having to use more "traditional" musical/compositional skills - if that's the case all I can say is there are no short cuts, whatever the software's sales pitch might say. Something like REAPER would be able to do most of what I understand you to be demanding, although for serious work with notation you'd need a proper notation program like Sibelius. If by "standard scales and pitches" you mean things like microtones, that's more specialised than a DAW as such would be able to handle I think. Not even Sibelius is much good at dealing with non-tempered intervals in the audio domain (in the notation itself you can write whatever you like of course!) because the tempered chromatic scale is a basic feature of the MIDI protocol.

If you can imagine a music you want to realise, there's always a way to bring it into being. If you're expecting commercial software to feed you with musical ideas that go against the priorities of the manufacturers, that isn't going to happen. Then you'd need to go in the direction of more exotic specialist software, rather than expecting a DAW to do everything.

[Dave2002]

Notation is generally the weak link in any DAW because it's assumed that many users won't be bothering with notation at all, and those who do won't expect very much from it. It seems to me that to do all the things you mention in your post you're exceeding the brief of a DAW. To your first two points: playing notes on a MIDI keyboard and having them converted into notation: no problem; recording notes from another instrument of course requires the software to recognise the pitches it's playing before converting them into notation and this is a process that generally requires some calibration and editing.

Thanks for responding.

I was just trying to think of as many possible uses as possible.

Re converting notes to notation - what do you recommend? You say it's no problem, but I've never tried that. I know about Sibelius, though I don't have it. I am starting to feel a need for something like that, but I don't think Sibelius converts keyboard strokes into notation - so maybe some intermediate form is needed.

Also, once one has a notation, one might then want to realise a composition/arrangement by having it played back - so your comment that notation is a weak link is telling.

Why would I want any of the points 3 and 5? I am currently playing with small groups - very small - but it could be good to make arrangements and try them out before taking the music back to the groups. Point 4 - I just put that in for fun - but why not?!!!

Real instruments apart from some keyboard instrument can - and do - play with different scales. Even conventional scales may actually be played differently by instrumentalist such as violinists, wind players, where the notated pitch could be shaded by the player. Players don't have to play in equal temperament scales if they find that they prefer other sonorities, either for their own preference, or for harmonisation with others.

I never quite got into Midi - maybe it does a significant part of what I want - I may even have some kit already, but as I just wrote - I never got into Midi.

[Richard Barrett]

Re converting notes to notation - what do you recommend? You say it's no problem, but I've never tried that. I know about Sibelius, though I don't have it. I am starting to feel a need for something like that, but I don't think Sibelius converts keyboard strokes into notation - so maybe some intermediate form is needed.

Sibelius does indeed convert MIDI input from a keyboard, or whatever, into notation, and can then of course also play it back using whichever sampled instrumental sound you choose; as you'd expect from a program centred on notation it can also be used to edit the notation in many different ways. If you're writing scores by recording from a keyboard and want to hear a more or less rough version of what they sound like, it sounds to me like Sibelius would be a better idea than a DAW which is inevitably centred on sound rather than notes.

Real instruments apart from some keyboard instrument can - and do - play with different scales. Even conventional scales may actually be played differently by instrumentalist such as violinists, wind players, where the notated pitch could be shaded by the player. Players don't have to play in equal temperament scales if they find that they prefer other sonorities, either for their own preference, or for harmonisation with others.

You don't say! But this is not something you're going to be able to do easily with anything based around MIDI.

[Dave2002]

I never really got into Midi, but I mentioned that already. I’m now trying to rectify that by reading, and will perhaps try it out in the next month or two.

Is there an affordable version of Sibelius? I hear that the free or cut down versions may be too limited.

The most expensive piece of software I have is Final Cut Pro X - over £200 - indeed now just 1 penny less than £300, and I’m not rushing to push that into second or third place.

[MrGongGong]

I never really got into Midi, but I mentioned that already. I’m now trying to rectify that by reading, and will perhaps try it out in the next month or two.

Is there an affordable version of Sibelius? I hear that the free or cut down versions may be too limited.

You can probably buy a "second hand" copy of V6 for not much
Sibelius changed significantly after V6 BUT later versions are backwards compatible

[Dave2002]

I found a new (to me) DAW yesterday - LMMS - though so far not had great success with it - https://lmms.io/

I may now be able to find the time to try out Reaper.

I have been doing a bit of experimenting and investigation.

Can the more advanced DAWs do some or all of the following:

1. Shorten or lengthen a sample - either with the pitch rising/lowering, or with the same pitch? If a track is a midi track, it should be possible to shorten/lengthen the notes without change of pitch.

2. Reverse a track sample - so it comes out backwards

3. Invert a track sample - in the sense that Bach and Mozart would understand that.

4. Raise lower (transpose?) the pitch of a track/sample.

Also, are there issues about data transfer between different DAWs? Are there any common standards so that pieces can be moved between DAWs - “obviously” I don’t just mean the audio. Otherwise does one get locked into a particular DAW and its associated formats? Clearly there must be some differences, but is there any cross compatibility, or virtually none?

[Bryn]

I found a new (to me) DAW yesterday - LMMS - though so far not had great success with it - https://lmms.io/

I may now be able to find the time to try out Reaper.

I have been doing a bit of experimenting and investigation.

Can the more advanced DAWs do some or all of the following:

1. Shorten or lengthen a sample - either with the pitch rising/lowering, or with the same pitch? If a track is a midi track, it should be possible to shorten/lengthen the notes without change of pitch.

2. Reverse a track sample - so it comes out backwards

3. Invert a track sample - in the sense that Bach and Mozart would understand that.

4. Raise lower (transpose?) the pitch of a track/sample.

Also, are there issues about data transfer between different DAWs? Are there any common standards so that pieces can be moved between DAWs - “obviously” I don’t just mean the audio. Otherwise does one get locked into a particular DAW and its associated formats? Clearly there must be some differences, but is there any cross compatibility, or virtually none?

I don't work with MIDI, so can't answer that question, and I am not entirely sure what you are getting at with 3. However, I have been using various upgrades of Sound Forge for decades and it certainly handles the other issues you raise. With time stretching or compressing while retaining pitch, be aware that beyond around 5%, either way, various echo and other artefacts become intrusive.

[I am using SF Pro 12 on my main laptop, and SF Audio Studio 13 (the slimmed-down 'home' version) on others. Before Magix took on Sound Forge from Sony, one could install and use SF on as many PCs and you wanted, so long as it was not run on more than one at a time. Magix had made that much more complicated. Supposedly legal, previously registered installations of SF Pro 12 may be found on eBay for very little. Mine is the fully authentic Magix release, bought via a Magix upgrade offer for more than ten times the cost of these eBay offers. Similarly, my SF AUdio Studio installation is fully legit from an upgrade. I am just starting to learn to use Reaper (for use with the recently purchased Soundfield mic.). While SF Audio Studio does offer multi-channel editing and claims VST plugin compatibility, the SoundField by RØDE Plugin seems not to work with it.]

[Richard Barrett]

With time stretching or compressing while retaining pitch, be aware that beyond around 5%, either way, various echo and other artefacts become intrusive

... or musically useful.

[Bryn]

... or musically useful.

Point taken.

[Dave2002]

... or musically useful.

That’s probably true for sound samples, but for Midi tracks could be musically useful to lengthen or shorten fragments - typically by doubling or halving note lengths. Composers from Bach to Glass and Stockhausen have, I think, used such devices - probably even back as far back as Ockeghem and Dufay.

Quickly back to regular audio tracks, I think it’s possible to stretch/contract audio tracks in Final Cut Pro X, but not sure if it really works sound wise. I’ll check. It is I think also possible to reverse video tracks - not sure what happens to any embedded sound. Again - if I find time I’ll check that.

[MrGongGong]

... or musically useful.

This is essential IMV

http://hypermammut.sourceforge.net/paulstretch/

to make this (which is only a small amount of stretch)

http://www.læyf.com

[Richard Barrett]

That’s probably true for sound samples, but for Midi tracks could be musically useful to lengthen or shorten fragments - typically by doubling or halving note lengths. Composers from Bach to Glass and Stockhausen have, I think, used such devices - probably even back as far back as Ockeghem and Dufay.

Amazing, Holmes!