Wi Fi and range extenders

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  • Dave2002
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 18035

    Wi Fi and range extenders

    I recently bought this - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01LXOZ4EN/

    The description suggests that it contains a wifi range extender, plus a Powerline plug adapter. I have no complaints about the performance, but it seems to me that there are possibly several modes in whch this combination could work, or is actually working when installed, and different levels of performance could arise as a result. As the units are intended to be plug and play, it is not actually clear what the underlying methods and protocols are, though previous experience with some TP-Link kit suggests that it would be possible to spend hours reading the technical manuals to reconfigure them. Most users won't have the time or patience to do that.

    I don't know enough about wifi range extenders to be sure of how they operate, but I think that some "simply" pick up a wifi signal and then echo the incoming packets out - perhaps on a different channel - but I've not checked. If stop and wait protocols are used that would theoretically halve the data rate, but in practice the improvement in performance due to better wireless performance might more than make up for that. In a kit such as this one, the range extension might actually be achieved by having the mains cable carrying the data, with the "range extender" simply acting as a wireless access point. This mode of operation in some situations would certainly lead to improved connectivity. It is possible that the components of the kit could do both at the same time.

    I can say that installing the wifi extender led to an immediate improvement in signal coverage, though later this may have dropped later. I can also mention that checking that data was in fact being sent by the mains links was at first uncertain, and adding another Powerline unit to allow wired connectivity in another part of the house which did not at first work, suggested that the mains cable links might not always have been working, and attempts to add in other units may also disrupt the performance of the rest of the network.

    I suppose it doesn't really matter how the data goes, as long as the performance and coverage is improved.

    However this has been achieved, I am considering buying one of these - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Universal-E...nk+range&psc=1 for another application, as I was really quite impressed when I put in the extender unit (not the same as this extender) from the kit into my home network. In the house I'm sitting in now, testing data rates using various speedtests, shows a significant drop off with distance from the main router. Perhaps using a wifi extender would boost those data rates considerably, as well as increasing coverage.

    Does anyone know how these things really operate - particularly the wifi extenders?
  • Quarky
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 2672

    #2
    We have a TP-Link in a cabin up on the Dunstable Downs, where some service providers don't even provide coverage. However EE do provide coverage, and I believe that the TP-Link operates as a wi-fi hot spot, giving us Wi-Fi in the cabin. Data has to be purchased in chunks - not cheap.
    I'm sure that some units would operate as a satellite base station for the network, providing mobile phone coverage.
    Just a user, and I didn't install it, so not conversant with technical details.

    At home, I have a shed at the bottom of the garden 40 meters away, and I find a passive patch antenna directly coupled to the router provides a strong Wi-Fi signal. In fact sometimes I get a WiFi signal when the antenna is pointing in the opposite direction!

    Curiously, I find the higher the data rate (I get 30 MB/s), the better the WiFi signal. It's not just dependent on the intensity/ power of the signal.

    I guess you are familiar with this:
    Last edited by Quarky; 29-07-18, 09:13.

    Comment

    • Richard Tarleton

      #3
      Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
      Does anyone know how these things really operate - particularly the wifi extenders?


      I live in a cottage with thick internal walls, broadband (via wireless router) previously limited to the room with the router and desktop PC. I obtained TP link plugs from BT (my broadband provider) when I bought a smart TV, which is in another room. One plug is under the desk with the PC, the other behind the TV. I only know that the one near the router sends a signal through the ringmain to the other one, where it is picked up by the TV and any other broadband device in the room. You probably knew this much already. I'm afraid I paid my PC Doctor [sic] to install it, which is just as well as a certain amount of fiddling (calibration?) was required. All works perfectly now.

      Comment

      • Dave2002
        Full Member
        • Dec 2010
        • 18035

        #4
        Originally posted by Vespare View Post
        Curiously, I find the higher the data rate (I get 30 MB/s), the better the WiFi signal. It's not just dependent on the intensity/ power of the signal.

        I guess you are familiar with this:
        https://www.repeaterstore.com/pages/...er-differences
        Thanks for the link. I knew most of the contents, but not that particular link, which is helpful. Re your comment re the 30 Mbps with a better wifi signal I'm not quite sure what you mean by the "better" signal. Packets of data sent wirelessly may often be corrupted, resulting in resends - so signal intensity is a factor, but so is background noise. If the wireless reception is poor there will be many resends, and the effective data rate will drop - possibly very significantly. Also, in one of my currently configured systems there is both a Powerline link, and a wifi extender. I didn't do anything special other than plug and play - but it is possible under Internet protocols that packets could be routed both/either way if the system detects viable links. That would depend on lower level protocols.

        My initial surprise was that even with the wifi extender part of the kit installed there seemed to be an improvement - before I put the mains links in, and this is making me wonder whether in some situations just a wifi extender by itself (I assume effectively a wireless repeater) would be good enough. Despite the caveats in the article about using the same channels, and "stealing" bandwidth from the rest of the wireless network, in some situations the benefits may actually outweigh the drawbacks. As I wrote earlier though, I don't particularly want to spend time figuring out how to optimise the wireless network - and I have an application in which putting just one such repeater/extender in might result in significant improvements and increased data rates, in addition to improving coverage, and I'm wondering whether to try it - something like this one - which is relatively cheap - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Universal-E...=p_4%3ATP-LINK

        Comment

        • richardfinegold
          Full Member
          • Sep 2012
          • 7737

          #5
          We have an unattached garage. We installed security cameras in it because it had been burglarized. The cameras couldn’t connect with our WiFi so we purchased separate WiFi extenders from Netgear. The extenders had their own WiFi address. The cameras worked for two weeks, until the free data storage period of the cameras expired, and then despite us purchasing one of the paid storage plans for the cameras, the app stopped working. In the meantime, we began to have issues with every WiFi device in the home.
          It was at this time that I hired an IT consultant to help set up NAS. His first assignment was to help with the cameras.
          He had a tool that demonstrated that the WiFi penetration to the garage was adequate. He also quickly concluded that the other home WiFi devices were trying to connect to both IP addresses and therefore performing spottily. We disconnected the extender, reloaded the camera apps, and now everything is much better.
          I use power line extenders for Ethernet connections but after a few years have decided the poor performance isn’t worth it. My NAS, Bluesound, and Apple TV have all suffered from dropouts. I have decided to bite the bullet and run Ethernet cables through the house.
          There is a new way to do WiFi around the home where one buys multiple units that plug into wall units and bathe the home in WiFi. I am not sure if one of the links that you provided is for that type of product

          Comment

          • HighlandDougie
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 3106

            #6
            Mesh networks, as in:



            are quite clever. I have the BT version, as in:



            There is a clever app associated with it which helps one find the optimum signal-strength spots for placing the units using a mobile phone. My house in Scotland was built in the 1830s, has 3-foot thick stone walls and a quirky layout, including a 3-storey tower, which my previous Netgear network extender could never quite cover. The BT mesh network has been far more successful in "bathing" the house in wifi.

            Comment

            • Quarky
              Full Member
              • Dec 2010
              • 2672

              #7
              Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
              Thanks for the link. I knew most of the contents, but not that particular link, which is helpful. Re your comment re the 30 Mbps with a better wifi signal I'm not quite sure what you mean by the "better" signal. Packets of data sent wirelessly may often be corrupted, resulting in resends - so signal intensity is a factor, but so is background noise. If the wireless reception is poor there will be many resends, and the effective data rate will drop - possibly very significantly. Also, in one of my currently configured systems there is both a Powerline link, and a wifi extender. I didn't do anything special other than plug and play - but it is possible under Internet protocols that packets could be routed both/either way if the system detects viable links. That would depend on lower level protocols.

              My initial surprise was that even with the wifi extender part of the kit installed there seemed to be an improvement - before I put the mains links in, and this is making me wonder whether in some situations just a wifi extender by itself (I assume effectively a wireless repeater) would be good enough. Despite the caveats in the article about using the same channels, and "stealing" bandwidth from the rest of the wireless network, in some situations the benefits may actually outweigh the drawbacks. As I wrote earlier though, I don't particularly want to spend time figuring out how to optimise the wireless network - and I have an application in which putting just one such repeater/extender in might result in significant improvements and increased data rates, in addition to improving coverage, and I'm wondering whether to try it - something like this one - which is relatively cheap - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Universal-E...=p_4%3ATP-LINK
              Interesting. Data throughput depends markedly I think on the Quality of Service factor (QoS), which depends as you say on resends, error correction techniques etc. I am not a telecoms engineer, but I have studied the WiFi 802.11 protocol in the past:
              Similar to TCP congestion control on the internet, frame loss is built into the operation of 802.11. To select the correct transmission speed or Modulation and Coding Scheme, a rate control algorithm may test different speeds. The actual packet loss rate of an Access points vary widely for different link conditions. There are variations in the loss rate experienced on production Access points, between 10% and 80%, with 30% being a common average.[54] It is important to be aware that the link layer should recover these lost frames. If the sender does not receive an Acknowledgement (ACK) frame, then it will be resent.

              On a practical level, I agree with Richard FineGold, that a good old Cat cable ethernet connection is a sure way of removing all these issues.

              When we first moved into the present home, BT provided data rates of about 0.75 MB/s. As I was running a small business, I kitted myself out with a professional Draytek Vigor router, and installed this very close to the telephone cable input to the house. This worked very well, and I believe stole a march on my neighbours, who were probably using cheaper routers provided by the ISPs.

              We were upgraded to optical fiber some years back, and the input data rates went up to 30 MB/s. I had to purchase a Draytek Vigor Router 2860 to cope with the new protocol. This is a very fancy device full of bells and whistles, but the important point is that it optimises data input from the telephone wire, and it optimises the data output in the WiFi signal.

              The router is located in the loft, and with the 0.75 MB/s data rate., I couldn't get a signal in the ground floor kitchen. With the 30 MB/s signal however, WiFi operates perfectly in the kitchen. But the signal power has stayed the same. The difference is I assume that for each lost packet, perhaps there are 30 or so opportunities for resend within the same time interval.

              Comment

              • Dave2002
                Full Member
                • Dec 2010
                • 18035

                #8
                Originally posted by HighlandDougie View Post
                Mesh networks, as in:



                are quite clever. I have the BT version, as in:



                There is a clever app associated with it which helps one find the optimum signal-strength spots for placing the units using a mobile phone. My house in Scotland was built in the 1830s, has 3-foot thick stone walls and a quirky layout, including a 3-storey tower, which my previous Netgear network extender could never quite cover. The BT mesh network has been far more successful in "bathing" the house in wifi.
                That is interesting. I know a bit about mesh networks, but I didn’t know that companies - including BT - were making and selling “easy to use” solutions based on these. I may try those if I need to improve coverage. In the past I’ve tended to use Powerline, with some wireless access points or routers connected as well for the wireless links, but the mesh networks could well do better and be easier to install/use.

                Up to now I’ve tended to agree with rfg that wired Ethernet gives the best results, but that does require cable plus internal work to install. I have had success with Powerline systems before - and can’t say for sure that any drop outs were due to that. Powerline has the advantage of no new cabling, though often does reduce the number of available power points. However Powerline systems may not give complete coverage easily. In one house the upstairs and downstairs would for the most part only work on separate Powerline systems, even though the cabling all went to the same consumer unit.

                Wireless systems have improved over years, and now seem to be capable of giving performance similar to wired systems. I’m not sure how or why this has happened. In one flat and one house we checked out I found that data rates using Powerline and using wireless links were very similar - around 30 Mbps - which I didn’t expect. This is good enough for most current practical purposes.

                Comment

                • Anastasius
                  Full Member
                  • Mar 2015
                  • 1860

                  #9
                  Dave2002..all that that TP-Link gizmo is doing is to simply combine the functionality of the old TP-Link Powerline adapters with, say, a Netgear WiFi Access Point. It's a logical extension of TP-Links offerings. I use the latter in my workshop. However I do feel a little bit guilty as if there was a radio amateur nearby then he'd not thank me for using the TP-Link as they(and others) radiate remorselessly at frequencies where they are not supposed to and screw up radiocomms for hams etc. However, where I live, unless the midges have got a radio operators licence then I'm in the clear.
                  Fewer Smart things. More smart people.

                  Comment

                  • richardfinegold
                    Full Member
                    • Sep 2012
                    • 7737

                    #10
                    Many problems with WiFi. One is that here , ISPs are notorious for turning down the tap. You may think that you are paying for 20, but when you run a test it turns out to be 7. You the. Call and threaten the ISP with perdition. And they swear that they will never do it again....until they do. When they do you go crazy trying to figure out why something doesn’t work.
                    The other problem is that an increasing number of devices now use WiFi. My oven, refrigerator, washer, dryer, my wife’s Fitbit, her sewing machines, my Audio and video components, my Home Security System, our cameras in the garage, the lawnmower that I have been investigating ever since you alerted me to such a product, our computers, phones., printers...I probably have missed a few. All sucking from the same WiFi trough. It will only increase over time, and each device incrementally chips away at performance. At least a wired connection seems to guarantee a steady flow.
                    Power line adapters can drop performance as they have to hurdle circuit breakers. That might be the problem in my home as there are 2 circuit breakers between 2 adjacent bedrooms. I am trying to decide now between giving the power line adapter with the most juice a try vs just wiring the house

                    Comment

                    • Dave2002
                      Full Member
                      • Dec 2010
                      • 18035

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Anastasius View Post
                      Dave2002..all that that TP-Link gizmo is doing is to simply combine the functionality of the old TP-Link Powerline adapters with, say, a Netgear WiFi Access Point. It's a logical extension of TP-Links offerings. I use the latter in my workshop. However I do feel a little bit guilty as if there was a radio amateur nearby then he'd not thank me for using the TP-Link as they(and others) radiate remorselessly at frequencies where they are not supposed to and screw up radiocomms for hams etc. However, where I live, unless the midges have got a radio operators licence then I'm in the clear.
                      I don't think it's quite as simple as that, but I agree that TP-Link may have - up to a point - reworked some of their existing products. The Powerline parts are the same - but the WiFi bit will I think work as a stand alone device, and thus pick up a signal from the base station router, and then somehow rebroadcast it. That does seem to work - but the details are uncertain. However, if the Powerline device is also plugged in, then there could be two routes to the WiFi device - one from router to that (wireless) and one by the mains link. Again what actually happens may depend on software and other factors, and whether the "easy to use" setup procedures actually work.

                      In this house we have noted a significant boost in speed compared when connecting to the TP-Link WiFi device, compared with the base router - using different SSIDs. I think it's possible to set all the devices to the same SSID, and connecting devices will simply switch between the closest/strongest signal from a WiFi access point. Years ago I used to do that with wireless devices explicitly set to different wireless channels - but I haven't bothered to do that recently.

                      The mesh network approach mentioned could well be worth checking out, as it should use different protocols based on ad-hoc networking, and could improve the link connectivity in the wireless domain. If I'd known about that earlier I might have followed that route, but from where I am now it might be a more expensive option as I've already got some investment in other methods.

                      Comment

                      • richardfinegold
                        Full Member
                        • Sep 2012
                        • 7737

                        #12
                        TP Link products get the best reviews for this type of product. I haven’t tried them because the stores here off Neatgear only, at a fraction of the price of the TP products, but after reading this thread I found a vendor in New York that offers the TP products and they can be returned for up to 90 days for a 15% restock fee. It’s unclear when I can get the crew that offered to wire my house out here to do the job so I ordered the TP 2000. I will be in New York for a wedding in a few weeks and if it doesn’t work out I will return it and be $20 poorer, but if it does work I will have saved considerably more.

                        Comment

                        • Dave2002
                          Full Member
                          • Dec 2010
                          • 18035

                          #13
                          Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post
                          TP Link products get the best reviews for this type of product. I haven’t tried them because the stores here off Neatgear only, at a fraction of the price of the TP products, but after reading this thread I found a vendor in New York that offers the TP products and they can be returned for up to 90 days for a 15% restock fee. It’s unclear when I can get the crew that offered to wire my house out here to do the job so I ordered the TP 2000. I will be in New York for a wedding in a few weeks and if it doesn’t work out I will return it and be $20 poorer, but if it does work I will have saved considerably more.
                          I'm surprised that TP products cost more - that's not the case in the UK, in my experience.

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                          • richardfinegold
                            Full Member
                            • Sep 2012
                            • 7737

                            #14
                            about 2-3x Netgear prices here

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                            • Dave2002
                              Full Member
                              • Dec 2010
                              • 18035

                              #15
                              Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post
                              about 2-3x Netgear prices here
                              I always thought that Netgear products were pricier and in the past better, though eventually I had some fairly poor Netgear kit.

                              Just checked to see where they are all made (or claimed to be from - which isn't quite the same thing ...). Netgear - California - TP-Link China - though in practice both could be made in the same region of the world.

                              Could the US prices be due to Trumped up tariffs?

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