NAS Drives

[richardfinegold]

I long to do this somehow, but recent events of the last few years overtook me and I never did....

From my HiFi magazine reading, the hot news appears to be ....ROON management software....

....not cheap but reviews as very smooth and efficient... and if you have the cash you can by all-in-one packages for software/storage either SSD or HDD....the hardware componentry (i.e the big black box) is called ROON Nucleus or Nucleus+...

Plenty should come up if you google it.

Me? Just too stressed or worn out this year, to move on technically with this.... playing CDs or files off various Macs etc...and increasingly happy just to stream off Qobuz HiFi (on Audirvana+ here, but wide compatibility). Excellent sound - truly worth the effort to get it, Richard.

Roon is a hot topic. I may try it as a music management. Of interest to you, Jane is that a few Audiophile writers in Stereophile (Jason Serenius) and Hi Fi News (Keith Howard) think that Roon compromises sound quality by flattening out the soundstage.

[Stunsworth]

Roon is a hot topic. I may try it as a music management. Of interest to you, Jane is that a few Audiophile writers in Stereophile (Jason Serenius) and Hi Fi News (Keith Howard) think that Roon compromises sound quality by flattening out the soundstage.

I tried Roon and I can’t say I noticed that. My main issue was that the only streaming service that it could integrate with was Tidal, and compared to Qobuz I found Tidal’s Jazz and Classical offerings inferior - both in terms of what was available and the quality of the metadata.

In the the end I stayed with Audirvana for both replay of my ripped CDs and the streaming of Qobuz.

[Stunsworth]

Regrettably it is next to impossible to make the workarounds for Quobuz succeed here, and everyone that I’ve read recommends not going that route. Quobuz has stated they would launch here sometime this summer

Fair enough, all I had to do was send them an email and then pay the 200€.

[richardfinegold]

I tried Roon and I can’t say I noticed that. My main issue was that the only streaming service that it could integrate with was Tidal, and compared to Qobuz I found Tidal’s Jazz and Classical offerings inferior - both in terms of what was available and the quality of the metadata.

In the the end I stayed with Audirvana for both replay of my ripped CDs and the streaming of Qobuz.

Yes, the criticisms of Roon degrading sonics are far from universal, and while I respect the 2 Audio critics that I mentioned, they also are listening on systems that probably cost 30 times more than mine. I may try Roon, although like you I have no interest in Tidal. Have you had issues with Audirvana and iOS updates? I was reading a review of Bryston’s Raspberry Pi based streamer, and the critic doing the review uses Audirvana on his Mac and complained that most updates wind up disabling features such as sampling rate playback, and then have to be fixed by Audirvana updates. That type of thing has been endemic with Bluesound and drive me up the wall, especially because the Bluesound updates that are attempted fixes usually make things worse, until they do another update that finally corrects everything, only to have Apple blow it all up with their next update and start the fun all over again...As Dave said upthread, nothing beats the pleasure of opening a disc tray, pushing play and having music emerge.
So right now, I just wish to archive my CDs, but I intend to keep playing them. I’ll defer figuring out the optimal playback system for now, and hope that the technology has made it relatively bug free when I need it

[jayne lee wilson]

Regrettably it is next to impossible to make the workarounds for Quobuz succeed here, and everyone that I’ve read recommends not going that route. Quobuz has stated they would launch here sometime this summer

That is a real shame, especially as their new head honcho still claims to be doing USA this year... no problems with Audirvana+ here, everything has always run smoothly....(I'm on 2.6.8, you don't have to take every upgrade... maybe the problems are with 3. etc...?).

Thanks for the tips about Roon...Tidal's no good for me either... I'll return to my previous fantasy of running Audirvana on a Melco (VG USB Transport, but even costlier, if compat)...
...this morning I was listening to the new 24/96 download (first hi-res purchase for months) of the Serenades from the very challenging Tapiola Sinfonietta/Venzago Brahms cycle (remarkable, but a big caveat emptor...!), and I was reminded that hi-res is usually worth it: the extra space/depth/detail resolution was rewardingly clear, even over the very fine lossless stream...

If only Qobuz would allow trials of the Sublime+ version... I can't find any detailed comment on it yet (WhatHiFi were critical, but superficial as ever) - as regards, say, how it sounds compared to the natively-stored downloads... the crucial point for me.

[johnb]

I too use a NAS to store my ripped CDs, etc. (Actually I use a HP Microserver with Ubuntu Server operating system.)

There are a number of important considerations:

Ripping and tagging
On Windows I use dbPowerAmp for ripping and mp3tag for tagging. I rip to FLAC, one folder per CD (when it is an opera I will initially rip each CD to a folder then merge the folders and adjust the tags accordingly). I have no idea what ripping/tagging software is available for Macs. In my experience most CDs take up approx 350MB to 400MB when ripped to FLAC, so that gives you some guide to the required HDD capacity.

How are you going to play the music?
I use a Squeezebox Touch with "Logitech Media Server" software installed on the HP Microserver. Although, as Dave has said, it was discontinued five years ago, the LMS software has been continuously developed and probably now has one of the best interfaces out there (when controlled by the iPeng app on an iPad).

It is very unlikely that you will be using this method, but you need to try out some options and decide on what method/software you will be using (I believe that Jayne use the highly regarded JRiver software).

Also, how will you link up to your audio system?

Tagging
This is probably the most critical part of ripping your collection to HDD as it will determine how easy or frustrating it is to find the music you are looking for.

There are two methods of finding the piece or "album". One is to navigate the folders to find it (if your playing software allows that). The other (probably more important) is to use the tags to find the piece. Therefore, you need to arrive at a tagging system that you use consistently. It must be a tagging system that works for you and which also works with the way your playing software deals with tags. The tags that are automatically found and entered by the ripping software will almost certainly need lots of editing.

I would rip a few CDs, then see how your tagging system works with the playing software you use. If it is exactly what you want - fine. If not you can redo the tags on just those few CDs you ripped, without having to do your whole collection.

As an example, my tagging system is to tag each major piece as an "album". If there is a collection of short pieces I will tag the whole CD as an "album", e.g. Barbara Bonney's "Diamonds in the Snow"

album: <composer> - <piece> - <main performers>
... e.g. Beethoven - Symphony No 5 - Haitink, LSO

track: movement

Composer: surname of composer (e.g. "Shostakovich", where that is confusing - surname, firstname (e.g. "Scarlatti, Domenico")

track artist: main individual performers as separate tags, e.g. Haitink & LSO (easily done in mp3tag or dbPowerAmp)

[Edit]

Some examples of my iPad screen when selecting/searching for music:

General display when browsing composers: https://app.box.com/s/vnoeyn5277gldt3t5e6fx9f6qar11kk2

After selecting Bartok: https://app.box.com/s/i1cgndfsmg8msv9q6ggdazv5tpb58h14

After selecting piece: https://app.box.com/s/s4agkg358kmk402omhb6lti53nbxt705

Random "Albums": https://app.box.com/s/wzcjw5ic3qm2r6uza9p5dltexto1fuq7

[richardfinegold]

That is a real shame, especially as their new head honcho still claims to be doing USA this year... no problems with Audirvana+ here, everything has always run smoothly....(I'm on 2.6.8, you don't have to take every upgrade... maybe the problems are with 3. etc...?).

Thanks for the tips about Roon...Tidal's no good for me either... I'll return to my previous fantasy of running Audirvana on a Melco (VG USB Transport, but even costlier, if compat)...
...this morning I was listening to the new 24/96 download (first hi-res purchase for months) of the Serenades from the very challenging Tapiola Sinfonietta/Venzago Brahms cycle (remarkable, but a big caveat emptor...!), and I was reminded that hi-res is usually worth it: the extra space/depth/detail resolution was rewardingly clear, even over the very fine lossless stream...

If only Qobuz would allow trials of the Sublime+ version... I can't find any detailed comment on it yet (WhatHiFi were critical, but superficial as ever) - as regards, say, how it sounds compared to the natively-stored downloads... the crucial point for me.

Good to know about Audirvana...but do you use it on a Mac? It’s the Mac OS updates that caused the problems with Audirvana, and those are harder to skip.
Melco scares me, because besides being really costly, their CEO made his fortune with Buffalo Computer Peripherals, so essentially Melco NAS are Buffalo drives with more expensive casework

[richardfinegold]

I too use a NAS to store my ripped CDs, etc. (Actually I use a HP Microserver with Ubuntu Server operating system.)

There are a number of important considerations:

Ripping and tagging
On Windows I use dbPowerAmp for ripping and mp3tag for tagging. I rip to FLAC, one folder per CD (when it is an opera I will initially rip each CD to a folder then merge the folders and adjust the tags accordingly). I have no idea what ripping/tagging software is available for Macs. In my experience most CDs take up approx 350MB to 400MB when ripped to FLAC, so that gives you some guide to the required HDD capacity.

How are you going to play the music?
I use a Squeezebox Touch with "Logitech Media Server" software installed on the HP Microserver. Although, as Dave has said, it was discontinued five years ago, the LMS software has been continuously developed and probably now has one of the best interfaces out there (when controlled by the iPeng app on an iPad).

It is very unlikely that you will be using this method, but you need to try out some options and decide on what method/software you will be using (I believe that Jayne use the highly regarded JRiver software).

Also, how will you link up to your audio system?

Tagging
This is probably the most critical part of ripping your collection to HDD as it will determine how easy or frustrating it is to find the music you are looking for.

There are two methods of finding the piece or "album". One is to navigate the folders to find it (if your playing software allows that). The other (probably more important) is to use the tags to find the piece. Therefore, you need to arrive at a tagging system that you use consistently. It must be a tagging system that works for you and which also works with the way your playing software deals with tags. The tags that are automatically found and entered by the ripping software will almost certainly need lots of editing.

I would rip a few CDs, then see how your tagging system works with the playing software you use. If it is exactly what you want - fine. If not you can redo the tags on just those few CDs you ripped, without having to do your whole collection.

As an example, my tagging system is to tag each major piece as an "album". If there is a collection of short pieces I will tag the whole CD as an "album", e.g. Barbara Bonney's "Diamonds in the Snow"

album: <composer> - <piece> - <main performers>
... e.g. Beethoven - Symphony No 5 - Haitink, LSO

track: movement

Composer: surname of composer (e.g. "Shostakovich", where that is confusing - surname, firstname (e.g. "Scarlatti, Domenico")

track artist: main individual performers as separate tags, e.g. Haitink & LSO (easily done in mp3tag or dbPowerAmp)

Thank you john.
Your emphasis on tagging is making me rethink my premise that I can just rip these to iTunes for archiving and then figure out the playback issue later when I need to. Your point that the tagging system needs to work well with the playback software is well taken
Currently in my main system a MacAir Computer is connected to aMytek Manhatten DAC by FireWire. I also have a Bryston DAC3 and could alternatively connect the Air to the Bryston usb input

[johnb]

Richard,

I don't know whether Audirvana or Roon do a free trial period (I think JRiver does) but, if they do, the best thing would be to rip some CDs and try them out.

One thing you mentioned was that "Synology drives include cloud based backup". Personally I would much prefer not to rely on cloud based backups. I certainly wouldn't fancy restoring 100s of GBs over an internet connection.

By the way, your DACs intrigue me. From time to time I have thought of getting a new DAC that will double as a pre-amp to feed my Bryston 4B SST2 power amp/PMC OB1i speakers. The Bryston DAC3 would require an additional pre-amp (perhaps a Bryston pre-amp) which I can't really justify. I've wondered about the Mytek Manhatten DAC or the Benchmark DAC3. What are your thoughts about the Mytek and Bryston?

[richardfinegold]

Richard,

I don't know whether Audirvana or Roon do a free trial period (I think JRiver does) but, if they do, the best thing would be to rip some CDs and try them out.

One thing you mentioned was that "Synology drives include cloud based backup". Personally I would much prefer not to rely on cloud based backups. I certainly wouldn't fancy restoring 100s of GBs over an internet connection.

By the way, your DACs intrigue me. From time to time I have thought of getting a new DAC that will double as a pre-amp to feed my Bryston 4B SST2 power amp/PMC OB1i speakers. The Bryston DAC3 would require an additional pre-amp (perhaps a Bryston pre-amp) which I can't really justify. I've wondered about the Mytek Manhatten DAC or the Benchmark DAC3. What are your thoughts about the Mytek and Bryston?

The Synology drives do not rely exclusively on Cloud backup. As noted they are a RAID configuration and then at the advice of my IT I have added two extra drives for double back up. The cloud backup is icing on the cake, a 3rd layer.
My Mytek Manhatten is “ Generation 1”. I bought at the time because I was ready for a major DAC upgrade from an Oppo 105, because it reputedly handles DSD well, and because it has a FireWire input, which was important for me because I really like that interface. I have over 100 SACDs, and assorted Blu Ray and DVD-A, and I bought the Bryston because it has 4 HDMI inputs. The Oppo can be configured to output the DSD from SACD over HDMI and I wanted to take advantage of this. I thought that I would sell off the Mytek, but I still value it’s fw input, and I waver between the 2 DACs, depending on the recording and my mood.
The Mytek is extremely analytical, but not in a lose the forest-for-the-trees kind of way. Compared to the Mytek the Bryston is less detailed, but not lacking in an absolute sense. It’s more of a middle of the Hall presence with Red Book, but is superb with SACD, and I prefer it with high resolution downloads that I play from usb sticks via the Oppo

[Dave2002]

I bought at the time because I was ready for a major DAC upgrade from an Oppo 105, because it reputedly handles DSD well, and because it has a FireWire input, which was important for me because I really like that interface.

I'm intrigued by this, in that I thought Firewire had died out and is now more or less obsolete. I have some Firewire drives (actually multi-interface) which I bought in the hope that these would speed up transfers from some older iMacs which have Firewire, but only USB 2. These have partly served their purpose, but Firewire is nowhere near as useful as USB 3 or other faster interfaces.

The other use I have made of Firewire is for transferring data from a video camera. Again, this is really not necessary nowadays, as other interfaces or just simply using a memory card work as well or better with modern cameras.

Maybe there is something about Firewire which you find works for you, and perhaps for the audio kit it does give better results, but for high speed transfers and compatibility with new systems surely it is now way behind the times. I would like to hear your views on this.

Sometimes one just has to let go of older systems - something which at the present time I'm really finding very hard to do with some old kit - inlcuding several turntables, and arms etc., some Minidisc recorders, some amps and some old laptops. I even have an old early generation Macintosh computer - which will have to go either to a museum or the dump - I suspect the latter.

[richardfinegold]

I'm intrigued by this, in that I thought Firewire had died out and is now more or less obsolete. I have some Firewire drives (actually multi-interface) which I bought in the hope that these would speed up transfers from some older iMacs which have Firewire, but only USB 2. These have partly served their purpose, but Firewire is nowhere near as useful as USB 3 or other faster interfaces.

The other use I have made of Firewire is for transferring data from a video camera. Again, this is really not necessary nowadays, as other interfaces or just simply using a memory card work as well or better with modern cameras.

Maybe there is something about Firewire which you find works for you, and perhaps for the audio kit it does give better results, but for high speed transfers and compatibility with new systems surely it is now way behind the times. I would like to hear your views on this.

Sometimes one just has to let go of older systems - something which at the present time I'm really finding very hard to do with some old kit - inlcuding several turntables, and arms etc., some Minidisc recorders, some amps and some old laptops. I even have an old early generation Macintosh computer - which will have to go either to a museum or the dump - I suspect the latter.

FireWire is indeed gone the way of the Beta Max recorder and DVD-A. I first became aware of it in Audio about 15 years ago when I bought my first Sony SACD player and learned that it could be linked to a compatible Sony AV receiver with a “
D Link” which is a FireWire link. The improvements over HDMI were highly significant. At the same I was experimenting with Computer Audio. This was in the days before asynchronous usb DACs. I had a fw DAC that completely blew away the very poor usb sound. I am still not a fan of usb for linking PCs to DACs as I think the usb link in most DACs that I have heard are their weakest link, inferior to coax, Optical, and HDMI. YMMV.

[Bryn]

Heaven forbid that the saintly Apple might engage in built-in obsolescence.

[richardfinegold]

So I downloaded the free trial of Roon yesterday and fooled around with for about 2 hours. Not much of a trial, but first impression is unfavorable. Perhaps the paid version will work better but it is buggy. It kept making me sign in and change my password for no apparent reason. It also asked me to renter my credit card info . Every 2 minutes I got a prompt to purchase a Tidal subscription . When it did work it doesn’t appear to offer any advantages for Classical Music compared with iTunes. Supposedly it improves file organization but I detected no sign of this. Composers such as Bach, Beethoven, Mahler are categorized under several different headings, with no links provided to different recordings in my collection by Composer or Performer, which is something that Roon stresses in it’s advertising.
I didn’t get a chance to critically listen for sonic issues, but I don’t think that I will be buying this.

[Dave2002]

FireWire is indeed gone the way of the Beta Max recorder and DVD-A. I first became aware of it in Audio about 15 years ago when I bought my first Sony SACD player and learned that it could be linked to a compatible Sony AV receiver with a “
D Link” which is a FireWire link. The improvements over HDMI were highly significant. At the same I was experimenting with Computer Audio. This was in the days before asynchronous usb DACs. I had a fw DAC that completely blew away the very poor usb sound. I am still not a fan of usb for linking PCs to DACs as I think the usb link in most DACs that I have heard are their weakest link, inferior to coax, Optical, and HDMI. YMMV.

Interesting to read this, and that with your particular DAC the Firewire link gave sonically better results. I don't normally use USB for linking to DACs - usually I use optical or coax.