Is anyone here using NAS Drives to store their collections? I’m about to take the plunge. Does anyone use the music software management software packages that come with them?
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I've been there, done that, and currently reverted to real physical discs.Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post -
Me to. I was using Bluesound after becoming frustrated with the Mac&DAC route, but the App is so buggy that it has taken fun out listening to music. The problem is that the CDs that I have scanned to the Bluesound HD, some of which I’ve discarded, are now stuck on their proprietary system. So I want to rescan my remaining discs, which are accumulating faster than the discards, to a file system that I at least can control, should I ever have to give up my house and live in smaller quarters.
What were the pitfalls for you, Dave?Comment
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Pitfalls
1. The time taken to scan and rip the discs. Actually that wasn't too bad as long as I was working on one of my iMacs, as I streamlined it so that I could do a CD in 2 or 3 minutes. I have done at least 1000 CD rips.
2. I used a Logitech Squeezebox, and a couple of other Logitech units. Once these went out of production things got a bit harder, and although there is still software support from an ongoing group of enthusiasts, it was a distraction trying to keep things going.
3. I play CDs in my car. Sometimes that's the only place where I can play CDs! Usually the car CDs are from charity shops or the dump, but many are good. My car CD player is not really compatible with ripping, though I can rip several CDs to MP3 to get more hours of listening and in a car the quality loss is hardly going to be noticeable. Mostly I don't bother - just buy another CD or two from my cheap second hand sources!
4. Mrs D is not into ripping. This is probably a major factor. What is the point of my ripping lots of CDs to hard drive if nobody else actually knows how to use the system?
5. Although I have ripped many CDs on to one or two drives, and in theory they should not need to be re-ripped, amalgamating all the ripped CDs onto a central drive which could then work with all my kit across a network just seems like too much effort. I have tried to go down this route, but have reverted to just playing the CDs.
6. If I rip all my CDs on to a few hard drives, and they then are damaged or lost, I lose all my collection if I don't keep the CDs. If I do keep the CDs, I'd have to rip them again. Hard drive failures are not unheard of. Obviously if one is prepared to take the risk, or have multiple backups of drives, then much less physical storage is required if the CDs are disposed of - which I think in the UK at least is considered illegal because of copyright issues. If the CDs are kept, they can be kept in less accessible locations, but they should be kept in good conditions, and the physical storage problems still remain. Perhaps self store facilities can be used to overcome those issues, there would then be costs involved. SSDs are still an expensive form of bulk storage. Some enthusiasts have used RAID devices to overcome or reduce some issues, but costs escalate wildly with that approach.
7. Sound quality. Some have suggested that better SQ can be obtained by investing in DACs and ripping. I think that can be the case, but with a good CD player I think that SQ can be acceptably high for a reproduction system. A further factor which won't affect too many people, is that some discs are Blu Rays or SACDs or even DVD-As with surround sound, and under some conditions (not everyone will agree) can give better results than regular CDs, either because of the different disc types, or the multi-channel approach. Ripping SACDs or Blu Rays may not be so easy - unless one simply accessess PCM compatible layers on the discs. Doing multi-channel by ripping is not something I've got close to attempting.
8. Cataloguing - this can be a pain. It's OK if one only has one recording of (say) The Marriage of Figaro, but anyone who has several will discover that without specific attention the tracks can all get mixed up. This is a major factor - and adds to the whole effort of ripping.
9. CDs with lots of tracks which should play in "gapless" mode on a CD player - can be very hard to deal with by ripping. One or two here have suggested using audio editors to join the tracks together. This is just getting to be too much effort, and the time spent doing that kind of thing could actually be spent listening.
Advantages of ripping
1. Searching for music once it's all catalogued neatly can be very fast.
2. If one has friends round, it can be very good for doing comparisons, or finding specific pieces or specific recordings.
3. As long as everything works, the problem with finding CDs which might have disappeared under a sofa or bed (hopefully temporarily) disappears.
4. Losing CDs is much less likely, once the CDs have been ripped. All the CDs in a boxed set can be put away, so that loss or misplacement is less likely.
5. Multi-room and/or multi-user systems should work well if a large bank of ripped music is available - but how many of us really have such systems? I've not really got into multi-room use yet, and multi-user systems need to have user interfaces which work with the kit that most users actually have.
I'm not against ripping - but just found over a period of years that going back to physical discs seems simpler, and mostly "just works".
Maybe I will in the future return to ripping, but other "life" factors turn out to be more demanding and important.Comment
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That’s pretty comprehensive. I’ve already been burned twice in the Computer Audio game. First I had ripped dozens of albums to iTunes only to have Apple attempt—without me asking them to—to upload my collection to “the Cloud” . Not only did my iTunes collection of my own rips disappear for months, when it reappeared it was damaged. Only certain tracks of most ripped CDs will play.
The second is the aforementioned Bluesound fiasco, where every iOS update breaks something that was previously fixed.
So all that I am looking to achieve here is to have an archival copy of my CDs, so that if I am compelled by life circumstances to suddenly require less space, it won’t be a final parting from the bulk of my collection. Until such circumstances happen, I intend to continue playing the actual discs, because as you say, it just works. If Quobuz ever appears on these shores, perhaps some streaming as well.
My SACDs, Blu Rays and DVD-As won’t be included. That is the Physical Media that I will take with me. The small amount of High Resolution downloads that I own will also be kept separate on a small HD that I can plug directly into the usb slot of my Oppo and not have to reset I tunes every frigging time to make sure it is outputting in native resolution.Comment
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You can get a lot of CDs ripped in ALAC or FLAC formats on a 2 Tbyte drive. If you don't have a huge number, you could even use WAV - though that would probably double the storage requirements.
You've seemingly been bitten by Apple/iTunes. I'm not sure that I have been - it's possible. Some "tracks" which should never have left one of my machines turned up on other devices on my network - which I believe could only have happened if Apple software had uploaded them without my permission - which perhaps they would argue they had.
I have often ripped using iTunes as it's convenient. Others suggest other ripping tools to avoid Apple. I generally rip to ALAC - but see below.
If you can live within the constraints of currently affordable drives - say 2-4 Tbytes, then I'd suggest buying several of these.
Then do the rip - even using iTunes if you are comfortable with that - or another software package if you can find one you can live with. Do try to estimate how much storage you'll need for the number of CDs you intend to archive. Also consider whether it's worth buying one "huge" drive, or several smaller ones. The costs might not be so different - but remember about "putting all your eggs in one basket". On the other hand, you won't want to complicate your life too much by having lots of very small drives or SSDs.
After doing that - almost immediately back off ALL the ripped files onto one or more spare drives, and don't use those drives frequently. It probably makes sense to run them up once or twice each year in order to keep the drives functioning. Try to avoid loading those drives onto any system which might compromise the data in any way, or any machine which is connected directly to the internet, if you think problems could arise that way. Drive to drive copy should be relatively fast - though it will still take some time - but it's a lot faster than doing the rips all over. With SSDs it should be even faster. If possible use high speed interfaces - there is a very noticeable difference between older interfaces such as USB 2, even Firewire and USB 3 and newer. This is probably not relevant, but might be if you have older equipment with slower interfaces. It's not worth buying new kit with slower interfaces to save money. The fastest latest interfaces may, however, introduce new compatibility problems - I just don't know. USB C should be faster, but how compatible is it now?
You might actually be more secure backing off to FLAC format - as there are I suspect more systems which can handle FLAC directly. It is possible to convert from ALAC to FLAC and vice versa, so if you are only looking for an archive/backup solution that would work.
Despite my concerns about Apple, I am no lover of Windows either. However, there are several software tools which will work with Windows and can cope with FLAC files. The only issue then would be to make sure that the volume formats you would use to store a collection of FLAC files would also be Windows compatible. At the moment that possibly means FAT32 which I think both Apple and Windows can read/write.
If you are not trying to archive a huge number of CDs, then it might be a good idea to add SSD storage into the mix, though as I mentioned earlier, it is relatively expensive. Costs are coming down though and if you drop an SSD unit the data will probably survive. That's not guaranteed with a hard drive. Check out the prices of SSDs for the size of backup storage you think you might need. It may turn out to be a good solution. SSDs are mostly at least twice as fast as hard drives - though only if a fast interface is used.
Re Qobuz, I have a basic account - but I really don't use it too much. Indeed I am now thinking of ditching all my streaming and download services and saving any subscription charges - and interestingly if you just want to hear unusual pieces - many can be found on YouTube. Very possibly the higher quality levels of systems like Qobuz do give better audio - though there's always the possibility that something you really want to hear will either not be on the system, or even if it is, there is never any guarantee that the service will maintain that music or performance for ever.
A quick afterthought - here I"m suggesting that you keep the CDs and keep playing them, and only use the drives as archives in case the worst happens, and to save physical storage space. Your original post mentioned NAS. The situation might be somewhat different if you intend actually using the files stored on any drives within a networked music distribution system. The overall approach would be the same initially, but having drives actually running on a network might give other problems over time.Comment
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I should mention that unlike my previous attempts, I am being assisted by 2 individuals. One is my Brother in law, who is very IT savvy, is recently retired and was burned once already in this process when he was using Buffalo NAS drives that went south and cost he and his partner years of storage. Regrettably he lives in Boston and while I have been in contact with him I finally took the plunge when I discovered someone local, a neighbor of mine who is an IT professional, was recently downsized and is trying to make a go of it helping people with projects such as mine. I have used the latter for a different project and He probably save me hundreds of dollars from what I would have unnecessarily spent, along with significant aggravation.
They both recommended Synology drives, and these seem to get a good rating from the on line Computer Audio community. I decided on a RAID format with 6 TB. I decided against SSD, as the NAS will be located in a room not used for listening, but ordered 4 HD total, as there is going to be a dual back back up, and the Synology drives include cloud based backup as well. In addition to storing a few thousand uncompressed CDs, I will be using them for a comparatively small amount of photos and videos, so I am hoping that 6TB per HD is sufficient.
So I ordered it all yesterday, and my IT guy, whose services are relatively cheap, will be installing next Wednesday. I haven’t decided on a music management service yet so the initial rips will be ALAC. I would like to use a management software that doesn’t find itself incompatible with successiveiOS updates, or perhaps a dedicated audio component that takes files from the NAS and is also immune from frequent updates. Since I don’t plan to actually play the files for pleasure, and are merely archiving, I can wait.
Streaming services are a separate topic entirely. I’d like to give Quobuz a try and hope that they fulfill their plans of launching here this summerLast edited by richardfinegold; 22-06-18, 10:38.Comment
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When Qobuz was only available in France (I'm in the UK) I emailed them asking if it were possible for me to sign up to the service. They replied fairly quickly confirming that they were happy for me to subscribe - I'm assuming they amended some setting associated with my account. It might be worth dropping them an email to see if they'll do the same for you.Originally posted by richardfinegold View PostSteveComment
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I use Qobuz all the time. We moved house well over a year ago and my CDs are...well, still yet to find the box that they are packed away in.Originally posted by Stunsworth View PostFewer Smart things. More smart people.Comment
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Richard
I put my nearly 2,500 CDs onto NAS starting over 2 years ago and I’ve never been so happy with a system. I would never go back to CDs.
My motives were twofold – accessibility and, like you, concern over not having room for my collection if I were to have to downsize due to age. I’m fairly tech savvy but I really didn’t have to use any special skills. I bought an Innuos Zen mark 1 NAS 2 TB music server (cheaper to build your own but I’m lazy). It’s silent so you can keep it where you like. I also bought an extra 2TB internal drive for my PC (not strictly necessary) and a 2TB external USB 3 drive.
First, I ripped to FLAC onto my new PC drive using dbPoweramp, then edited tags using Mp3tag. You can do the ripping on the Zen but editing tags remotely is too slow so you’d have to transfer the file to the PC, edit, then transfer back. Direct to Zen might work if you have a fast intranet but I don’t.
Second for every completed batch of CDs I created folders directly from the album names (so one folder per album) using Text2Folders. Transfer to Zen flac folder was then via ViceVersa with my computer drive as source and Zen as destination.
I back up, firstly by having copy of the Zen flac folder on my new computer drive. Secondly by backing up the Zen to the external USB drive. Thirdly by buying a subscription to Carbonite and continuously backing up the computer internal drive to there. So, two backups at home (one in another room) and one external. And no external system can modify or otherwise mess with my files.
Writing it down makes it all sound complicated but once you’re going it’s fun. I found it rewarding to systematically re-visit every CD in my collection and ear mark some for listening. One challenge was inventing a tagging system. I settled for having albums as Composer – Work – Performer, but there’s other ways. The whole process took nearly two years, working every now and then when I felt like it (I’m retired). But it became hypnotically relaxing sometimes, just the right level of minor effort and zero stress. I was wondering if I could sell it as a new sort of Mindfulness practice! I recommend it. And two bonuses – all my music available in the kitchen, bathroom, bedroom etc. as well as my study – operas now in whole acts with no CD changes mid act, as important to me as not having pictures cut in half.
SteerpikeComment
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Do you really mean uncompressed CDs? ALAC and also FLAC are lossless formats, but compressed nevertheless.Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post
This sounds a comprehensive set up - and for what you want it for could be very good. Please keep us informed.
Similar hardware systems could be used for streaming, as I think you’ll know by now. You’ll have to decide on a philosophy. If the objective is archiving and disaster avoidance and recovery if there is a problem, you won’t really know if it works until the worst does happen. It’s like paying for insurance - it’s a waste of money if there are no problems, but otherwise .....
Re Qobuz - yes - go for it as a different approach, but don’t assume that it or any other service will keep your most cherished performances for ever. I agree with the others that if it works that it may do most of what you want, both in terms of availability and sound quality, and you won’t need to use CDs again, but you need to consider costs and other factors. Stop subscribing and you’ll lose all access, and remember that Qobuz was under threat some time back.
I do hedge my bets - and subscribe to a few streaming and download services - but for the use I make of them buying CDs is cheaper, and mostly delivers on quality and range of music. The biggest failing is space.Comment
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I long to do this somehow, but recent events of the last few years overtook me and I never did....Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post
From my HiFi magazine reading, the hot news appears to be ....ROON management software....
....not cheap but reviews as very smooth and efficient... and if you have the cash you can by all-in-one packages for software/storage either SSD or HDD....the hardware componentry (i.e the big black box) is called ROON Nucleus or Nucleus+...
Plenty should come up if you google it.
Me? Just too stressed or worn out this year, to move on technically with this.... playing CDs or files off various Macs etc...and increasingly happy just to stream off Qobuz HiFi (on Audirvana+ here, but wide compatibility). Excellent sound - truly worth the effort to get it, Richard.Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 22-06-18, 16:14.Comment
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I've heard of it, and it looks as though those who use ROON really rate it, but ... expense ... more complications ..... I'd give it a "maybe" right now - which is not to disbelieve anyone who uses it or has/d recommended it. It does appear to be a "hot" recommendation.Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View PostComment
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Regrettably it is next to impossible to make the workarounds for Quobuz succeed here, and everyone that I’ve read recommends not going that route. Quobuz has stated they would launch here sometime this summerOriginally posted by Stunsworth View PostComment
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Thanks for sharing that. Afraid I lost you after the dbpower amp mention.Originally posted by Steerpike View Post
I am hoping that hiring someone will guide me through some of these pitfalls...I am afraid that IT matters frustrate me when they go wrong and take the fun out of listening to music. I struggle with IT issues at my profession and wish to leave them behind me when I am at home. I appreciate the tagging suggestionsComment
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