Proms 2017 in FLAC

[Sir Velo]

Worryingly for those of us who want this experiment to become a staple offering of the BBC, particularly for live performances, fewer than a thousand "likes" have been registered on the "Taster" website. Presumably, this means that the FLAC feed is actually being used by a very small minority of listeners, despite the very audible improvement in hifi, as i cannot imagine anyone using the feed not taking the trouble to rate it.

For those of us who care, it is possible to rate more than once, which may help to give greater credibility to the experiment.

[Goon525]

I suspect that it is a small number of us, and that the key reason is the complexity of the set-up. I happen to be able to run up-to-date Firefox on a MacMini with a digital output into a DAC, but I think most listeners will already have switched off reading those words. What is for sure is that the effort is worthwhile.

[Stunsworth]

I suspect that it is a small number of us, and that the key reason is the complexity of the set-up. I happen to be able to run up-to-date Firefox on a MacMini with a digital output into a DAC, but I think most listeners will already have switched off reading those words. What is for sure is that the effort is worthwhile.

I'm using an identical setup, and yes, it's a worthwhile effort. I do hope it continues after the Proms have ended - even if for performing rights reasons it's limited to live concerts.

I didn't manage to catch catch all of last night's concert, but oh those bass drum thwacks in Mahler 10 got my heart racing - as good a sound as I've ever heard from the 'radio'.

[jayne lee wilson]

...Just a shame though that there was some heavy-handed boosting of the quietest string passages in the Mahler 10 1st movement, that telltale effect of the Hall atmosphere rumbling up towards you, exaggerated immediacy/resonance of the strings, following wind solos too loud etc...very distracting. I kept glancing at the hifi just in case I'd put FM on by mistake... The middle three movements much better, especially (iv), but that level-adjustment was audible again near the very end...

Hope it was a rare lapse!

[David-G]

Worryingly for those of us who want this experiment to become a staple offering of the BBC, particularly for live performances, fewer than a thousand "likes" have been registered on the "Taster" website. Presumably, this means that the FLAC feed is actually being used by a very small minority of listeners, despite the very audible improvement in hifi, as i cannot imagine anyone using the feed not taking the trouble to rate it.

For those of us who care, it is possible to rate more than once, which may help to give greater credibility to the experiment.

I couldn't find anywhere to click to rate a "like".

[Stunsworth]

I couldn't find anywhere to click to rate a "like".

There a '* Rate' button near the top right of the webpage. Click on that and take the short questionnaire.

[PJPJ]

In case some haven't heard the news: the flac stream is now available via Chrome as well:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/blog/2017-04-radio-3-high-quality-flac-dash

P

[teamsaint]

In case some haven't heard the news: the flac stream is now available via Chrome as well:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/blog/2017-04-radio-3-high-quality-flac-dash

P

Thanks PJPJ.
I hadn't heard that news, but have been a bit out of the Proms loop for the last few days.

[PJPJ]

Query re Total Recorder: will the standard version capture the stream or does one need the Professional version?

[Cockney Sparrow]

(Sorry I can't address the question I have the video pro version as it was modest cost and sometimes I record You Tube excerpts for Mrs CS teaching purposes).
UPDATE - I've just looked up the comparison chart - I think you can use the software mode in the basic edition, but the comparison chart here
http://www.totalrecorder.com/features.htm indicates you might not be able to "Schedule direct capturing (background recording) of an Internet audio stream". I think you can trial the program for 30 days?

Can I add another question, though? - if anyone more expert is addressing Total Recorder. I've used it for many years, and must have monitored the level of any live recording at the time I am doing it. However, for example I was at the Rachmaninov Vespers late night Prom and set Tot Rec to record from the FLAC stream. But I misjudged the level setting, I chose too high, and ended up with a lot of distortion. A pity - as I was interested to make a comparison of sorts with stalls M (or was it N? - anyway the block nearest the stage right looking forward), and the AAC iPlayer stream, and the FLAC stream. The lowest recording level I use, generally, is about "+4db, 158%"

There is an automatic level setting - but presumably that introduces a crude compression/restraint of the level above certain levels so it would defeat the purpose of the enhanced quality of the FLAC stream?

As I type, it occurs to me - would it be preferable to the recording level really low - would the resulting file need a lot of amplification and then sound poor for other reasons? Otherwise, recording the FLAC stream needs me to be present in the room (reminiscent of early tape recorder days....) at the time of the broadcast to establish what level is being used -as I use a desktop for this purpose, its not always possible.


And finally, does using the VLC program offer a better solution to that problem? (However, given that I obviously have an imperfect grasp of Tot Rec after all these years - I only know how to use it for what I have needed to do, it would be hard to take on another programme at the present).

[johnb]

If you want Total Recorder to produce the closest match to the original:

In *Windows Sound: Playback tab - select the active playback device, click on Properties, Advanced tab and set it to "2 channel, 16-bit, 48000Hz" - i.e. match it to the stream

Open *Windows Mixer (right click on the loudspeaker icon in the taskbar) and set the Firefox (or Chrome) slider to 100%. (If you want to test how this affects Total Recorder - set it recording and vary the Firefox level in the mixer.)

In the BBC FLAC player - set the volume to 11. (If you want to test how this affects Total Recorder - set it recording and vary the level on the webpage.)

In Total Recorder - set the Level to +0dB, 100%

In Total Recorder - Parameters: Audio: select the "Software" option.
In the same window you can change the Recording format:
- No conversion will record at 16/48 PMC (the same as Total Recorder "sees")
- If you want to save it as FLAC: select "FLAC" 48000/16 (I seem to remember that Total Recorder writes to a temporary file as PMC then converts it to FLAC when you later "Save" the file.)

After you stop the recording don't forget to "Save"

* In Windows 7 both these can be navigated to via the Loudspeaker icon on the taskbar (right-click, select "Sounds" and right-click, select "Open Volume Mixer". They can also be navigated to within Total Recorder: Options/System Settings and Options/Sytem Mixer

[Sir Velo]

If you want Total Recorder to produce the closest match to the original:

In *Windows Sound: Playback tab - select the active playback device, click on Properties, Advanced tab and set it to "2 channel, 16-bit, 48000Hz" - i.e. match it to the stream

Open *Windows Mixer (right click on the loudspeaker icon in the taskbar) and set the Firefox (or Chrome) slider to 100%. (If you want to test how this affects Total Recorder - set it recording and vary the Firefox level in the mixer.)

In the BBC FLAC player - set the volume to 11. (If you want to test how this affects Total Recorder - set it recording and vary the level on the webpage.)

In Total Recorder - set the Level to +0dB, 100%

In Total Recorder - Parameters: Audio: select the "Software" option.
In the same window you can change the Recording format:
- No conversion will record at 16/48 PMC (the same as Total Recorder "sees")
- If you want to save it as FLAC: select "FLAC" 48000/16 (I seem to remember that Total Recorder writes to a temporary file as PMC then converts it to FLAC when you later "Save" the file.)

After you stop the recording don't forget to "Save"

* In Windows 7 both these can be navigated to via the Loudspeaker icon on the taskbar (right-click, select "Sounds" and right-click, select "Open Volume Mixer". They can also be navigated to within Total Recorder: Options/System Settings and Options/Sytem Mixer

Thanks johnb for that summary. I'm reassured to note that that's what I've been doing! As a TR virgin until this Proms season, I have been learning from my mistakes as I've gone along (eg forgetting the change in Proms start times; getting the auto stop times wrong etc).

However, it should be noted that the TR +0 setting, even allowing for setting the FLAC volume to 11 and the mixer to 100% one gets a recording with a sound level generally lower than most commercially recorded discs and downloads, IME.

[johnb]

However, it should be noted that the TR +0 setting, even allowing for setting the FLAC volume to 11 and the mixer to 100% one gets a recording with a sound level generally lower than most commercially recorded discs and downloads, IME.

Yes, that is because the BBC allows a fair amount of headroom. Commercial CDs are often "normalised" so that the peaks are at or very near 0dB (the maximum) whereas the BBC allows quite a bit of headroom - the peaks can be somewhere between -3dB and -6dB.

[Cockney Sparrow]

........................Open *Windows Mixer (right click on the loudspeaker icon in the taskbar) and set the Firefox (or Chrome) slider to 100%. (If you want to test how this affects Total Recorder - set it recording and vary the Firefox level in the mixer.)...................

* In Windows 7 both these can be navigated to via the Loudspeaker icon on the taskbar (right-click, select "Sounds" and right-click, select "Open Volume Mixer". They can also be navigated to within Total Recorder: Options/System Settings and Options/Sytem Mixer

Many thanks Johnb. I can use Afternoon on Three to try this for the first time (so a RAH mic /processing set up FLAC stream) where the music/performance is err, shall we say, of less musical interest - and then the Saint Saens Symph 3 tonight will test the recording volume !

Also -
Just to say - I had to hunt around to find the mixer in my Win 7 set up. I found the mixer by clicking on the speaker symbol on the bottom taskbar (for me, just to the right of the date/time in the bottom far right of the screen.

Instead of right clicking, I found mine by left clicking and "mixer" appears at the bottom, beneath the volume slider. I clickws on "Mixer" - then went to a table with sliders for all audio files open (I see I''ve got a fair few Tot Rec files open at the moment….) so there is a slider to find the Firefox one).
(I'm sure there is more than one way for me to find the mixer….. probably via Control Panel or whatever, however this is the one on my PC…).

UPDATE - I wonder if Win 7 is playing ducks and drakes with me. In addition, did I really miss that on right clicking the said speaker icon on the task bar, in the pop up table of options "open Volume Mixer" is one of the presented options....).

[Bryn]

Yes, that is because the BBC allows a fair amount of headroom. Commercial CDs are often "normalised" so that the peaks are at or very near 0dB (the maximum) whereas the BBC allows quite a bit of headroom - the peaks can be somewhere between -3dB and -6dB.

What you get with Total Recorder can also vary a great deal from computer to computer. Using precisely the same settings, and with nominally the same sound circuitry, my HP i7 laptop records with around 10dB higher level that an Acer i3 laptop. Strange but true. John might be able to comment on the Peak level associated with the FLAC stream captured raw.