Radio 3 being broadcast in FLAC

[Stunsworth]

An interesting development, I'll take a listen when I can...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/taster/projects/radio-3-concert-sound/inside-story

It needs the latest version of Firefox to work.

[french frank]

An interesting development, I'll take a listen when I can...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/taster/projects/radio-3-concert-sound/inside-story

It needs the latest version of Firefox to work.

Says it will work on FF 51 or greater. I think the latest is 52.

[Bryn]

An interesting development, I'll take a listen when I can...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/taster/projects/radio-3-concert-sound/inside-story

It needs the latest version of Firefox to work.

Very interesting, but no details given of sample rate or quantization word length. The iPlayer aac spec. for Radio 3's HD Sound is 48kHz sampling and 16 bit quantization. I would guess they use the same for this FLAC experiment.

[Stunsworth]

Very interesting, but no details given of sample rate or quantization word length. The iPlayer aac spec. for Radio 3's HD Sound is 48kHz sampling and 16 bit quantization. I would guess they use the same for this FLAC experiment.

I've had confirmation from the BBC that the stream is 16/48.

[Bryn]

Thanks for that, Steve. Now if one could find a way of grabbing the FLAC stream to FLAC files ... It would be interesting for some one with trained ears to do AB comparisons with the HD Sound iPlayer aac offering. I somehow doubt much difference would be detected by all but a very few. I wonder if jlw would be up for it?

[jayne lee wilson]

The 48khz indicator certainly lit up here on last night's Karabits/BSO Reformation Symphony.... I didn't care for the performance especially - a little slow and soft, if well played - but sure enough, although this relay sounded a bit "dark", almost too coolly "neutral", a quick comparison with the 320kbps stream (on Baroque music during the interval) revealed the extra space, depth and inner clarity in the lossless stream. Sweeter treble too, on a solo flute. Similar impressions later, on a TTN Brahms 3rd. That sense of the music "breathing more freely" that lossy streams, even good ones, always seem to miss....
Brief impressions, early days, but I had no problems with stream stability and I'd suggest as many listeners as possible get it going, get a listen and sing its praises on the questionnaire offered! It says on the Firefox Taster page that it will run for 5 more months... which of course covers at least some of the Proms.... don't get too excited now!

Keep reporting impressions here, in the meantime....

**crossed posts, Bryn! I'm off out now as usual but hope to make it back for Part One of the Bridgewater effort tonight (not up for a Rachmaninov 2nd, perhaps someone else...?)
(I did try to find a way of measuring the stream in Audacity or Mac apps like Activity Monitor but eventually gave up. But I never used Audacity much, so lack much competence with it...there may be a way).

[Bryn]

The 48khz indicator certainly lit up here on last night's Karabits/BSO Reformation Symphony.... I didn't care for the performance especially - a little slow and soft, if well played - but sure enough, although this relay sounded a bit "dark", almost too coolly "neutral", a brief comparison with the 320kbps stream (on Baroque music during the interval) revealed the extra space, depth and inner clarity in the lossless stream. Sweeter treble too, on a solo flute. Similar impressions later, on TTN Brahms 3rd. Early days, but I had no problems with stream stability and I'd suggest as many listeners as possible get it going, get a listen and sing its praises on the questionnaire offered! It says on the Firefox Taster page that it will run for 5 more months... which of course covers at least some of the Proms.... don't get too excited now!

Keep reporting impressions here, in the meantime....

Wow, that was quick. Have you got second sight as well as hearing?

[Dave2002]

At least my browser (v52) is able to do this. I can't so far say whether it's better - my feeling is that it is, but there are some imperfections nevertheless. Remember to turn the volume up as far as it will go in the browser if you're feeding an external DAC - but don't deafen yourself if you listen on headphones.

The Rachmaninov symphony on now is quite good - but I'm guessing that a much longer period of listening is going to be needed in order to assess this well. Instruments seem fairly well defined, and the bass - e.g timpani sound OK.

There is quite a lot of detail - now on to the third movement - lots of colour. String tone not bad. Is there any dynamic compression?

Is this only available in the UK? It would be good if some of our offshore friends could try this too.

Maybe those who have streaming Qobuz services at this quality level or higher could comment?

[jayne lee wilson]

Admiring the lossless webcast of the Barber Violin Concerto this evening, I reflected that I'd not heard such a smooth, open, relaxed quality on "the radio", on a big Romantic climax like the one in the slow movement since the glory days of FM. Again that sense of slightly dark, cool neutral character with seamlessly blended treble, a big scale of soundstage too. Bass is noticeably strong, filling out the acoustic. Switching to HDs at 320kbps AAC for the finale everything seemed a bit cramped and small-scale. It turns out there is quite a delay between HDs and Concert Sound, so I was able to switch again and hear the end of the finale in lossless...... better separation, solo violin with more space and depth, and so sm-oo-oo-th...

Even on the Bach solo violin encore, there was that sense (via lossless) of the instrument dropping back into a more spacious acoustic. If only there were more orchestral concerts coming up, being Easter next week it's tending to be choral, not much to my present taste. I'll just have to dip in where I can....

But please DO support this on the Taster webpage if you can, it's a brilliant development!

[Stunsworth]

But please DO support this on the Taster webpage if you can, it's a brilliant development!

I took the survey yesterday. My tweet about hoping it could be made a permanent option was favourited by BBC Taster. Perhaps they do that for all the tweets in which they are mentioned, but I'm sure they'd like this to be a success.

[jayne lee wilson]

Just to remind anyone looking for suitably grand material to try out this lossless FLAC Radio 3 stream - TTN is repeating a 2015 Prom at 0100 hrs tonight (8/04), Messiaen Hymne/Mozart Cto 27/Bruckner 7 with Levit/BBCSSO/Oundjian....

[Dave2002]

Just to remind anyone looking for suitably grand material to try out this lossless FLAC Radio 3 stream - TTN is repeating a 2015 Prom at 0100 hrs tonight (8/04), Messiaen Hymne/Mozart Cto 27/Bruckner 7 with Levit/BBCSSO/Oundjian....

Pity - I missed that - but maybe there'll be other good material coming along. The early morning TTN is rather good.

5:44 AM
Schumann, Robert (1810-1856)
Liederkreis, Op.24
Jan van Elsacker (tenor), Claire Chevallier (fortepiano)

6:05 AM
Delius, Frederick (1862-1934)
On Hearing the First Cuckoo in Spring - from Two Pieces for Small Orchestra (1911/12)
Symphony Nova Scotia, Georg Tintner (conductor)

I shall be interested to hear the Quantz concerto which follows.

6:13 AM
Quantz, Johann Joachim [1697-1773]
Concerto in G minor, for 2 flutes, 2 oboes & bassoon
Alexis Kossenko & Anne Freitag (flutes), Anna Starr & Markus Müller (oboes), Jane Gower (bassoon), Les Ambassadeurs

Are these TTN recordings still from broadcasting companies around the world, or are some now commercial recordings?

Your earlier comment about some of the smoothness being rather like the best of FM in days of yore strikes a chord. The background is very quiet on the samples I've heard. This development does seem to be an improvement over aac. We are now getting better separation between instruments I think, coupled with a better overall tone and ambience. Of course it could just be my imagination .... but I don't think so. With headphones I can pick out individual instruments rather clearly - and shading by the players. In the Delius piece strands of music appear and disappear in a very natural and coherent manner.

Now crashed into the Quantz. The flutes are good and distinguishable. Where are the oboes and bassoons? Perhaps blending with the strings. Nope - I can't say for sure that I can hear them - perhaps in the ripieno sections, but does that make it a flutes plus oboe and bassoon concerto? To my mind it's a concerto with flutes with an orchestra which might just have an occasional backing by oboes and bassoons with the strings. There is what sounds like a solo cello from time to time. Nice reverberant resonance at the end of the first movement. Thankfully not cut off, but allowed to linger for several seconds.

Presumably this development is now rendering the transmission medium much more transparent, so that the quality (or perhaps in some cases lack of it) is more apparent. Will be interesting to hear how this works for other programs, such as Essential Classics and ones which are clearly based on CDs or commercial recordings.

At this rate I might even be tempted to stick with this into the remainder of the programme, which includes the Brahms Song of Destiny, which I'm not over fond of.

6:31 AM
Brahms, Johannes (1833-1897)
Schicksalslied (Song of Destiny), Op.54 for chorus and orchestra
Oslo Philharmonic Choir and Orchestra, Rafael Frühbeck de Burgos (conductor)

6:47 AM
Chopin, Fryderyk [1810-1849]
Berceuse in D flat, Op.57
Anastasia Vorotnaya (piano)

6:52 AM
Bruckner, Anton (1824-1896)
2 graduals for chorus: Locus iste; Christus Factus est
Danish National Radio Choir, Jesper Grove Jorgensen (conductor).

[One of the few pieces I ever sang in - singing not being my strong point since primary school days - where I recall being given a few solos to sing.

Might be good to listen to Building a Library via this channel - the sonic differences between recordings may become more clear.

[Dave2002]

Just a quick follow up - the BBC site - at least at the top level - doesn't seem to say what sampling rates and bit depths are being used. One post earlier suggested 48 kHz sample rate - though perhaps that was (I think it was) a misinterpretation of the evidence available - but of course that would give possible transcoding artefacts from CD sources.

This pilot offers Radio 3 in the highest possible audio quality so that our audience experiences our output exactly as it left the studio.

This is subtle wording - and might indicate that the audio quality in the studio could be higher. All it's effectively saying is that there is no loss of digital data in the transmission, but any downsampling or other alterations to the audio bit stream as it leaves the studio which might lower the audio quality (probably only slightly) would not be considered. Also any adjustments which might be made in the studio could alter the sound. The BBC does not guarantee not to do that - nor should it.

Even so - it seems pretty good so far. It's almost possible to concentrate on the music without worrying too much about the technical aspects - though it almost inevitably will (and does) show up imperfections in performances which might otherwise go unnoticed.

[Stunsworth]

Dave, the people responsible for the trial - BBC Taster - confirmed to me last week that the FLAC trial was being broadcast in 16/48, the same bit depth and sample rate as the standard HD AAC option. It wouldn't surprise me if internally it's 24/96 and is down sampled for broadcast.

[Dave2002]

Dave, the people responsible for the trial - BBC Taster - confirmed to me last week that the FLAC trial was being broadcast in 16/48, the same bit depth and sample rate as the standard HD AAC option. It wouldn't surprise me if internally it's 24/96 and is down sampled for broadcast.

Thanks for the information.

BAL is very good in this format. If anyone is listening to Record Review/BAL they should try it ASAP. And yes - one can hear distortion in some of the recordings (e.g. Solti's), but others are very clear.