More suspicions about Apple's cloud

[Dave2002]

I do not subscribe to the view that storing data in clouds is always a good thing. Apple has promoted clouds, and offers "tempting" sentences such as "view your photos on all your devices" etc. Sometimes this is a good thing, but if it were replaced by "view all your secret documents on all your devices" it perhaps would not be. That would allow a thief or other malefactor to not only steal a physical device but also the data which the original user may not have realised would be available on that device without having ever entered it there, or given explicit permission for it to be accessible.

I have noticed a few issues with Apple's cloud over the last year, and I am not convinced that Apple is giving users sufficient control over their own data.

One incident involved some music and a film clip. The data could only have come from me - there are no other copies.
The original files were loaded onto a couple of computers for editing purposes. One day I connected my Apple TV to the TV (I don't leave it on all the time - in fact I hardly use it at all), and then realised that I could see the film clips and access the music. That might have happened if I'd given permission to a cloud for that to happen, but as far as I know I never did. I never do if I can avoid it.

Recently I noticed another such leak. In the last month or two I have been using smart email folders in email in order to organise my mail. I find them useful. The latest "issue" is that when I started up a computer which I have not used since before Christmas, I noticed some smart folders in the mail client, which seemed to match smart email folders I'd created recently on other machines. How did they get there?

Perhaps that isn't an Apple issue but rather a mail server issue - but it does suggest something going on behind the scenes which I can't control.

Regarding the (Apple) computer which I don't use much, I updated the OS since there was a recent update. It was previously upgraded to run El Capitan, but I did decide to bring it up to the latest version of that OS. It continually nags me to turn on my cloud.

Are we now in an era where it is going to be impossible to run a computer if it is not connected to at least one third party cloud service? It's beginning to look that way. I've not seriously used Windows based computers for years, and my suspicion is that Windows systems are no better than Apple's regarding extracting data and placing it on third party cloud sites. Of course we all know how much we should trust such respectable companies as Apple, Microsoft etc., so there are no worries, are there?

[french frank]

I still can't get the hang of iCloud and have abandoned it. I do find the BT Cloud easy to use, and I just use it for tranferring my own files between computers in different parts of the house. They're then deleted from the cloud.

One thing that took me aback when preparing to wipe my MBP prior to getting rid of it. I deleted the Firefox browser and various other things. Then had to reinstall Firefox again from a new download because I found I needed internet access. I was a bit (naively?) surprised on opening it to find that all my old bookmarks were there. Passwords are all password protected but, even so … I never expected that I shall get the MBP professionally wiped.

[Dave2002]

I still can't get the hang of iCloud and have abandoned it. I do find the BT Cloud easy to use, and I just use it for tranferring my own files between computers in different parts of the house. They're then deleted from the cloud.

One thing that took me aback when preparing to wipe my MBP prior to getting rid of it. I deleted the Firefox browser and various other things. Then had to reinstall Firefox again from a new download because I found I needed internet access. I was a bit (naively?) surprised on opening it to find that all my old bookmarks were there. Passwords are all password protected but, even so … I never expected that I shall get the MBP professionally wiped.

I think my concern about Apple is illustrated in my comments in my first post. You say you have abandoned iCloud, but it may not have abandoned you. Also some of the latest iOS and osx versions seem very persistent in trying to force cloud functionality on one. I had a message on my iPad Pro a few days ago saying it hadn't been "backed up" for two weeks. AFAIK I never backed it up, so what had it done?

I know it won't "back up" unless connected to a power source, but that shouldn't be sufficient for Apple to copy data off my iPad. I probably left it on charge one night, so what did "it" do? Perhaps someone at NSA could tell me?

[french frank]

This is one view - and probably the Apple view. I agree it doesn't answer your query of how your stuff appeared on your TV, but if you connected an Apple TV to your own TV, does that mean anything more than it's 'just in the family' (I didn't understand what an 'Apple TV' was)? The Apple ID seems to be a password to a lot of Apple outlets, quite beyond me (I can never remember what my ID is, and then don't manage to get both the machines operating (or not) on the same password.

But the point the article makes about 'relative security' on the internet seems reasonable.

[Dave2002]

This is one view - and probably the Apple view. I agree it doesn't answer your query of how your stuff appeared on your TV, but if you connected an Apple TV to your own TV, does that mean anything more than it's 'just in the family' (I didn't understand what an 'Apple TV' was)? The Apple ID seems to be a password to a lot of Apple outlets, quite beyond me (I can never remember what my ID is, and then don't manage to get both the machines operating (or not) on the same password.

But the point the article makes about 'relative security' on the internet seems reasonable.

No - I absolutely do not agree with Apple's view.

I have read "industry reports" which claim that cloud systems are safe, and provide better security, data integrity etc. than trying to do things by other means, but they often miss out significant things. If you believe in Apple then you will swallow this stuff.

Apple's cloud is in fact (I believe) stored on Amazon's servers. There are also issues regarding where cloud servers are located, and who owns and runs them. Many are run and owned by companyies in the USA. We have heard of problems in the UK where private information stored apparently by UK government department and agencies (e.g. DVLA) has been relocated to the USA, and then there has been a data leak. Even where the external services are provided by a trusted provider within the country whose jurisdiction applies, there can be problems. One third party provider in California, USA, which was I believe a candidate for providing services was immediately struck off a list when it emerged that the company might relocate its services, or outsource them, to locations/companies in Mexico. We pretty much know that organisations such as NSA and the equivalent GCHQ UK service can decrypt most documents, and we pretty much know that most internet traffic is monitored.

We also know that some data should be kept secret, private and/or secure, or it may become subject to some form of abuse. Some professionals, such as lawyers, doctors, workers in social and psychological services, have a legal responsibility to ensure confidentiality. This can all be undermined if inappropriate data storage and transmission methods are used. Commercial organisations may also wish to keep some data secure, as well as local government departments, where draft documents may form the subject of discussion. Using electronic storage and transmission provides convenience, but may present problems in terms of data leaks and data integrity.

I, like you, often use email to transmit data from one machine to another, because I'm "too lazy" to put in a USB stick or external drive and copy files and move them to machines elsewhere in this house. It is possible to do the transfers in such a way that (without external tampering) the data would not leave my house, but in fact if I use email the data will inevitably go via 3rd party networks and servers, certainly within the UK, and could even go outside the national service area. I'm not bothered - as I make sure I don't transmit any really sensitive or confidential information - if I can.

However, I think it is very plausible that many people, even if they think they are being careful, are in fact not being so.

There are of course, big blunders - http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/...d=synd_zergnet

[richardfinegold]

A while back I was complaining on the Forum that after my iTunes collection disappeared. IIRC I was attempting to save a significant part of my CD collection on a HD. One day the several hundred CDs ripped to to external HD were simply gone.The only parts of my iTunes collection that I retained were my purchased I tunes downloads. The same thing occurred with my back up HD, as I had been assiduously maintaining a back up drive. I mentioned this here as I was asking for guidance and the general reaction at the time was ??
Several months ago while sampling Apple Music during the free trial period, lo and behold, the missing files suddenly appeared in the 'Your Library' tab. After reinstalling the 2 HD I was able to reload them from 'the cloud' with the help of Apple Support (which had been unable to help when the original problem occurred).
I had never purchased any I cloud storage, so this is all rather interesting.
A Google search reveals that my case was not isolated. One article stated that Apple had received over 25,000 similar complaints. Apparently when Apple Music was created this caused the mass thievery...and other users such as myself who had not purchased cloud services or Apple Music were affected.
What is really irritating is how unhelpful Apple was at the time, when they must have been receiving complaints, and how they never attempted a fix. Had I not opted for the free trial of Apple Music I never would have rediscovered these albums

[Dave2002]

We had another quirky example. One machine (Mac OS X) seemed to be updated, and then all the contacts disappeared. I usually have ways of getting these back - and this usually only happens once a year when we try to send out Christmas cards.

On this occasion I noticed that the iCloud setting was off - which IMO is desirable, but out of curiosity I turned it on, and then the Contacts re-appeared. Proponents of clouds will say that "this is what it was supposed to do", but I disagree. Obviously if I or the owner of the machine had wanted the Contacts to be stored in a cloud that would have been their decision, but for the contacts to simply disappear from local storage seems unacceptable to me.

How the contacts have ever migrated without our knowledge - grrrr - even though eventually they were recovered.

It's a bit like you leaving an important document - possibly a house insurance document - on a table. A thief comes in and removes it. Then later on your house burns down, but subsequently the thief returns the document. "What were you complaining about - you got all your information back"!

[Dave2002]

After reinstalling the 2 HD I was able to reload them from 'the cloud' with the help of Apple Support (which had been unable to help when the original problem occurred).

Did you check to see that the files were the same as when you ripped them? If you have high quality downloads, or even CD quality rips - were the files the same or "merely" aac versions?

Possibly they were still original files on your own HD which somehow Apple had managed to hide from its own software. If you really did reload from the cloud, then it's possible that Apple tampered with them.

[richardfinegold]

We had another quirky example. One machine (Mac OS X) seemed to be updated, and then all the contacts disappeared. I usually have ways of getting these back - and this usually only happens once a year when we try to send out Christmas cards.

On this occasion I noticed that the iCloud setting was off - which IMO is desirable, but out of curiosity I turned it on, and then the Contacts re-appeared. Proponents of clouds will say that "this is what it was supposed to do", but I disagree. Obviously if I or the owner of the machine had wanted the Contacts to be stored in a cloud that would have been their decision, but for the contacts to simply disappear from local storage seems unacceptable to me.

How the contacts have ever migrated without our knowledge - grrrr - even though eventually they were recovered.

It's a bit like you leaving an important document - possibly a house insurance document - on a table. A thief comes in and removes it. Then later on your house burns down, but subsequently the thief returns the document. "What were you complaining about - you got all your information back"!

My wife had that exact same issue with her contacts. She reloaded them all manually before they magically reappeared

[Dave2002]

My wife had that exact same issue with her contacts. She reloaded them all manually bsefore they magically reappeared

We had lost the contacts before, but much of the information was in files on other machines - several Windows PCs. Last year I decomissioned those machines and took them to the tip. We have in earlier years had to re-enter the contacs by a semi-manual process. On a previous occasion I think I discovered that by using Time Machine I could save and recover the contacts.

When we discovered the problem again towards the end of last year I was investigating how to recover the contacts from the files we had and probably also the TM option, but somehow things seemed different I recall. We have had sometimes to recover the information effectively from what in years gone by would have been called file dumps - a mix of readable text and computer codes and use manual re-entry for difficult cases. It's not just the tiresomeness of having to re-enter data, but the fact that in some cases the information really is very difficult to extract.

Then I discovered that the contacts could be recovered by turning the cloud on again. While this overcame an immediate problem, it should not have been necessary, and I keep reiterating that there may be people who do not wish their information to be stored externally in such a way that their privacy could be violated by others - even if in the case of Apple, Amazon notionally the data is secure and the companies are currently thought by many to be trustworthy.

There are enough cases in history of large scale and systematic collection of data for ostensibly "sensible" (maybe) but bureaucratic reasons being used against large numbers of people and there is always a danger that the data may fall into the hands of those who are less trustworthy and responsible than those who collected the data. I do not have a consistent view about whether Google is good, bad (evil) or neutral, but we know now that it is possible to track down people who have certain characteristics "simply" by using large files of search terms. The claim by firms such as Google that (a) they keep the data very secure and (b) it would be impossible to use the data to identify individuals has been shown to be false because (a) there have been errors which led to data and organised files of search terms being widely available and distributed and (b) it has been shown that with a modest degree of work that the data can be used to identify people.

Ultimately it is probably going to be very hard for anyone who uses a computer connected to a network to know whether their data has been compromised or made available to others, whether they agree to that or not. Perhaps the glitches we notice when we see data leaks and problems which we did not agree to are helpful in that they alert us to potential problems, though it seems that very many people are either oblivious of such issues, or think that risks of having all one's information available to others are so low that this does not matter. "They" won't misuse my informtion, will they?

[richardfinegold]

I still would like to know how they are able to hijack files to the cloud when one has not elected to store anything in their cloud. I guess they gain access to everything when we allow them to do updates. Is there a way to allow updates and simultaneously keep their bloody paws off of our files? I am guessing not

[Dave2002]

I still would like to know how they are able to hijack files to the cloud when one has not elected to store anything in their cloud. I guess they gain access to everything when we allow them to do updates. Is there a way to allow updates and simultaneously keep their bloody paws off of our files? I am guessing not

I agree with you and the sentiments expressed, but what can we do?

At least we know this has happened. They could hijack all your stuff and you might not even know about it.

Even some big organisations have problems e.g. Wikileaks dump has made US 'less safe', says ex-CIA boss

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39201957

Even organisations which ought to be able to keep things under control fail .....

Ergo never use a computer, never write anything down, keep all your money in a tin box buried in your garden .....

Probably not, but just don't assume that things won't go wrong, perhaps by screw up, or accident, or malicious action etc.

The Apple updates, upgrades, cloud issues are a pain, but are any other systems really any better?

[Dave2002]

One possibility re the way "stuff" finds its way to other sites is that we actually permit it. Someone suggested that it might just be part of the T&Cs when we install new systems. Having just updated my MBP to El Capitan I noticed that at one point I was presented with (apparently) an 80 page document to agree to. I call this "take it or leave it" ware - and presumably most of us just press Return - and hardly anyone actually bothers to read all that stuff. I gave up after a few pages.

[richardfinegold]

One possibility re the way "stuff" finds its way to other sites is that we actually permit it. Someone suggested that it might just be part of the T&Cs when we install new systems. Having just updated my MBP to El Capitan I noticed that at one point I was presented with (apparently) an 80 page document to agree to. I call this "take it or leave it" ware - and presumably most of us just press Return - and hardly anyone actually bothers to read all that stuff. I gave up after a few pages.

Very true