DAB in France

[Alain Maréchal]

I have been asked if DAB reception is widely available in France, and if so, what is the quality. I have no technical knowledge at all, and although I could ask at the local Darty or FNAC shops, they are, whilst eager to help, habitually not helpful (possibly having a level of ability lower than mine which they wish to conceal). Is there anybody on this board who knows, or who could advise me how to find out?

Answers, if any, in simple terms please.

[Dave2002]

Not quite sure.

This gives a partial answer - http://www.worlddab.org/country-information/france

It looks as though France may be mostly covered by DAB+, which is a development from DAB. Whether all DAB receivers would pick up DAB+ is open to question. It is also possible that different frequencies would be used in France. Lastly, a DAB+ receiver which should work in France may - or may not - work with DAB in the UK.

That's the state of my ignorance at present. This would be relevant for car drivers or users of mobile equipment.

[Alain Maréchal]

thank you. It does not look hopeful outside the regional metropôles. (I must discover if pôle has lost its hat).
Do you know what are "slideshow services"?

ps on rereading, this article is about DAB+. Was DAB not inserted?

[Dave2002]

ps on rereading, this article is about DAB+. Was DAB not inserted?

DAB is/was the original. This was and still is used in the UK, and most broadcasters are still using the original standard as far as I know. DAB+ is a modified "variant" or development. There are several in use around the world. Some of them are DAB compatible in the sense that the receivers will play both DAB and DAB+. Some countries, such as Canada, introduced DAB, but have now largely abandoned it.

The basic features are the use of Orthogonal Frequency Modulation and lossy digital compression. DAB+ uses "stronger" digital compression than DAB, but is allegedly perceived as at least as good, so is less spectrum intensive than DAB.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_using_DAB/DMB

[Alain Maréchal]

The basic features are the use of Orthogonal Frequency Modulation and lossy digital compression. DAB+ uses "stronger" digital compression than DAB, but is allegedly perceived as at least as good, so is less spectrum intensive than DAB.

One man's "simple terms" is another man's need for orodispersible paracetemol, but thanks.

[Dave2002]

I'm curious as to why you want/need to know. Is it for a car radio, or some other reason?

[Bryn]

To get some idea of the difference between DAB and DAB+ at the same data rate, listen to BBC Radio 2 via DAB and the iPlayer. The latter uses the same audio data compression method as DAB+ (HE-AAC).

[Alain Maréchal]

I'm curious as to why you want/need to know. Is it for a car radio, or some other reason?

see post 1, sentence 1. I assume the person who asked me has no internet access in the ancient house which he is renovating. (A British obsession, it would appear).

[Dave2002]

see post 1, sentence 1. I assume the person who asked me has no internet access in the ancient house which he is renovating. (A British obsession, it would appear).

Ah - so probably not a mobile application, and maybe not in range of a DAB or DAB+ service.

FM or AM only options perhaps for the moment then. Though probably some new receiver sets sold in France will have DAB+ as well and will be able to receive services later, even if they are not available now. I don't know much about radio coverage in France - perhaps the FM will also be difficult depending on location. I would expect reasonable performance in built up areas where there should be reasonable FM coverage and perhaps DAB+ as well - as per the articles suggested earlier. Some countries also have satellite radio (USA - Sirius XM - some African countries had a service which is now defunct) and are investigating and maybe even deploying radio via 4G and upcoming 5G mobile networks. I don't know which, if any, in Europe are doing this at present.

Re satellite radio, I don't know what the quality is like in the USA. I have heard some of the satellite services which supplied programmes to Africa, and they were only of moderate quality - suitable for news and modest quality music.

I think many in the UK are now listening to radio and watching TV via computer networks, but that requires infrastructure investment which hasn't reached the whole country yet, and it sounds as though France might be behind in areas outside major centres.

[Gordon]

.....It is also possible that different frequencies would be used in France......

Almost all DAB implementations use the VHF band around 200 MHz. This is the old B&W TV band vacated in the 1980s. Each numbered TV channel was divided into "blocks" labelled A to F so that a given multiplex is allocated say 13F or 6A etc. These are listed against the services available. Not all the spectrum is licensed for DAB and different countries use different amounts of it to make room for more multiplexes. Remember that national muliplexes use single frequency networks which is spectrum efficient but the many local ones do not. This almost certainly the same in France.

...a DAB+ receiver which should work in France may - or may not - work with DAB in the UK.

although they use the same nominal specs there may be differences in the optional parts. IOW a UK DAB/DAB+ receiver will "work" in France but some ancillary services may not be the same eg service following.

As to Bryn's #7 that is a good way for evaluating the 2 DABs but notice that the DAB+ version is at about half the bit rate as DAB so the audio quality will be very similar. No one uses DAB+ to improve audio quality, it is used to reduce capacity [ie spectrum] requirements so that even more services can be placed in each multiplex.

There are now some DAB+ services here in the UK but the very many older receivers [which BTW have very poor sensitivity performance] will not be equipped to receive them. Any newish receiver with a Tick mark will. I have a Sony which is at least 7 years old and it has DAB+ because Sony designed receivers for an international market. It receives these new services. All newish cars will have DAB+ compatible radios.

[Dave2002]

Almost all DAB implementations use the VHF band around 200 MHz.

Indeed, but my early Sony model also had L band allocations.

From the specs

174.928 (5A) - 239.200 (13F) MHz
1452.960 (L1) - 1490.624MHz (L23) MHz

I wondered if any other countries ever used the L band. I was unsure about France.

Unfortunately I think my tuner is so old that it'll never get an upgrade to DAB+ or any other newer standard. Possibly newer tuners can be upgraded by a software/firmware upgrade - though it may depend on the model - and I'm really not sure if that's a feature of any DAB sets, whether +d or not.

Since the production of my tuner, many pieces of kit have been made with the possibility of future software upgrades - though not all such upgrades are successful. We had to scrap one DVB TV box because a system upgrade made it inoperable, and there wasn't a sensible upgrade. Some Sky TV boxes have had problems due to poor upgrades, while some PVRs were rendered less useful last year by the upgrade to the iPlayer system - with no possibility of a software upgrade.

I'm guessing that most kit is now made to be disposable, so manufacturers are not tending to provide too many facilities for future upgrades due to standards changes or for any other reason. OTOH we have FM radios which date back 20-30 years which still work.

[Gordon]

Indeed, but my early Sony model also had L band allocations. I wondered if any other countries ever used the L band. I was unsure about France.

Yes both Canada and NZ use the L band [terrestrial and satellite options] option for WolrldDAB applications. Europe uses VHF/Band 3 [174 to 240 MHz] as does China.

Unfortunately I think my tuner is so old that it'll never get an upgrade to DAB+ or any other newer standard.

I would say that that is a betting certainty!!!

Possibly newer tuners can be upgraded by a software/firmware upgrade - though it may depend on the model - and I'm really not sure if that's a feature of any DAB sets, whether +d or not.

The only updates that DAB supports is to the programme lists - when there is a change you would have to do a scan like for Freeview. In the early days of the DAB Action Plan the manufacturers were asked to enable over air updates. They resisted and one was willing IF the set was returned to the factory or service centre and a fee paid. In the end the idea died so UK DAB sets at least will not be able to get updates. So when the Minimum Receiver Specification was agreed [eventually after much argument] along with independent testing [optional] to get the Tick mark it was decreed that for the UK DAB+ was mandatory. That was only about 2 years ago which means that the vast majority out there cannot (a) be updated (b) receive DAB+. Any migration from current DAB transmissions in the UK to DAB+ is a huge problem requiring a long period of simulcasting which requires additional spectrum for the duration of the process.

Since the production of my tuner, many pieces of kit have been made with the possibility of future software upgrades - though not all such upgrades are successful. We had to scrap one DVB TV box because a system upgrade made it inoperable, and there wasn't a sensible upgrade. Some Sky TV boxes have had problems due to poor upgrades, while some PVRs were rendered less useful last year by the upgrade to the iPlayer system - with no possibility of a software upgrade.

I'm guessing that most kit is now made to be disposable, so manufacturers are not tending to provide too many facilities for future upgrades due to standards changes or for any other reason. OTOH we have FM radios which date back 20-30 years which still work.

That is more or less the case for DAB. FM isn't magically immune of course it is relatively very simple and incapable of being changed in any useful or significant way. RDS was added along with traffic announcements on its back but mostly for the benefit of car radios. There was the case some years ago when the VHF band 2 spectrum [88 - 108 MHz] above 104 MHz to 108 MHz was cleared of police etc radio and given to new radio stations. Many old sets could not get this part of the spectrum.

Incidentally, note that the FM spectrum extent of only 20 MHz is not valuable spectrum to be reclaimed and there appears to be no urgent demand for other uses. This is unlike the digital switchover for TV, where the new transmissions were in the same spectrum as the old analogue ones and so had to co-exist for a while, the spectrum to be reclaimed was significantly greater and so was given to feed the voracious appetites of the mobile phone companies [lots of cash for the Treasury]. The very top [so called 800 MHz band] of the old TV band is already used for mobiles [4G] and the next slot down [so called 700 MHz band] will be cleared of TV starting this year and the target is to finish by 2020. So some of you [not everyone is affected, it's regional] may have to retune your TVs and a few will need new aerials.

At the last World Radio Conference in 2015 the mobiles wanted the whole of the broadcast TV spectrum given to them and they suggested that everyone should be listening and watching on line. The broadcasters fought them off but that demand remains and they will be back at the next WRC in 2019 = so far the EC has supported the broadcasters but only as far as 2030 which means that any shutdown of Freeview will have to be planned a good while before that.

[Dave2002]

Gordon

Thanks for a very comprehensive update of the current situation.

Satellites seem to present a diminishing expectation for radio coverage - with most satellite ventures having collapsed, though there is still satellite (mobile) radio in the USA. Whether it will expand or maintain its position is unclear. The situation in the USA with much larger areas to cover may make it still a viable proposition.

Satellites will presumably still continue for TV distribution, and non mobile radio receivers could easily be accommodated on channels along with TV

Re 4G/5G possibilities a speculative paper by Teracom in Scandinavia suggests that it's unlikely both economically and technically. I'm not so sure that it's technically infeasible though, but it may simply not be an economic proposition. A German study suggests that distribution via mobile network infrastructure is likely to be 40 times more expensive than DAB+.

It seems that terrestrial broadcasting will be around for a long time, though in some countries as network infrastructure increases in capacity and performance, there is likely to be a shift to delivery by infrastructure networks.

[Gordon]

....Re 4G/5G possibilities a speculative paper by Teracom in Scandinavia suggests that it's unlikely both economically and technically. I'm not so sure that it's technically infeasible though, but it may simply not be an economic proposition. A German study suggests that distribution via mobile network infrastructure is likely to be 40 times more expensive than DAB+.

Have any links to those papers? I have read tons of technical and other documents about what 5G may/will do, some OTT from the techies and some sceptical from economists and financial people. One thing proponents claim is that mobile networks can replicate "broadcast" but they don't say how especially without wasting spectrum in the process - TV is down only and speech requires a balance of up and down. Streaming is also an unbalanced service so allocating spectrum dynamically is a challenge to mobile band plans. They do something call "multicast" which means inter alia a microcell around a sports arena say where they transmit TV pictures of the event [rights permitting] to those in the arena. There is a one off fee payable. The calim is that this can be expanded to national or regional scales. I doubt very much that the mobiles can match the quality of service and reliability that current broadcast networks provide.

It seems that terrestrial broadcasting will be around for a long time, though in some countries as network infrastructure increases in capacity and performance, there is likely to be a shift to delivery by infrastructure networks.

I worry about this because the pressures on government agencies like OfCom are great. OfCom have a very pro-mobile stance at present and have swallowed the blandishments of the mobile technology people about future potential. Other nations in Europe have little or no terrestrial broadcasting and have already promised the broadcast spectrum to the mobiles. This tips the balance for a European wide [think of the the needs of mobility and of global roaming] standard usage of spectrum. Alteratives to DTT are FreeSat or Sky or, in urban areas, Cable but moving to any these would require a huge change to viewers including a significant expense.

Over the next decade I can see a tough time for broadcasters in justifying their use of a very good band of frequencies whose propagation characterstics are ideal [compared to other higher frequency bands] for covering large rural areas economically. Urban areas can use many microcells in the high GHz bands to meet high local demand.

Anyway we've drifted a bit OT so that's enough!!