Streaming versus downloads

[richardfinegold]

JRiverMC began windows-only, but the first Mac version appeared in 2013. Mine is a 2014 build, 19.0.163, current one is 22. (Upgrades aren't offered free as per Audirvana+, so if it ain't broke...).
Worked pretty flawlessly so far. And really, though it can seem daunting when you first try to find your way around, most of my what-goes-where frustrations came about through our old friend human error - i.e Jayne being an idiot.

I mean, if you found J River daunting at first, imagine how must people will find it. My wife needs me to turn on the stereo because it's to darn complicated. Between the Amp, Pre Amp, Dac, BRP, streamer, can't imagine why...
Computer Audio is intimidating. Thus the growth of companies that make machines that take the PC out of the equation. Of course these streamers really are specialized computers with more user friendly interfaces, but the sheer number of them on the market has to mean that PC Audio is a no go for most people

[Dave2002]

I mean, if you found J River daunting at first, imagine how must people will find it. My wife needs me to turn on the stereo because it's too darn complicated. Between the Amp, Pre Amp, Dac, BRP, streamer, can't imagine why...
Computer Audio is intimidating. Thus the growth of companies that make machines that take the PC out of the equation. Of course these streamers really are specialized computers with more user friendly interfaces, but the sheer number of them on the market has to mean that PC Audio is a no go for most people

Mrs D has all but given up. We used to have integrated amps, plus a few extra units - turntable, tape deck, tuner - all manageable. Now she hasn't a clue what goes where, so sadly she doesn't know how to play CDs and relies on listening via iPads and the like and listening to the kitchen radio. We did try streaming from a hard drive at one time - but basically it all seems too complex and complicated. The TV is also complicated, though mostly we both manage with that. "Life" with technology is getting too difficult - for some! Streaming and/or downloads (e.g. IPlayer) using iPads does seem just manageable, though.

[Anastasius]

I'm struggling to understand why some people have difficulty with downloads. There is enough error correction built in to the end-to-end process that any lost bits, dropouts are (or should be) effectively hidden from the end result.

Streaming I can understand the occasional dropout.

[Anastasius]

....."Life" with technology is getting too difficult ......

Amen to that.

[richardfinegold]

I'm struggling to understand why some people have difficulty with downloads. There is enough error correction built in to the end-to-end process that any lost bits, dropouts are (or should be) effectively hidden from the end result.

Streaming I can understand the occasional dropout.

I have yet to do a non MP3 download that doesn't have at least one dropout. I attribute it to the Internet Connection

[jayne lee wilson]

I have yet to do a non MP3 download that doesn't have at least one dropout. I attribute it to the Internet Connection

Just to clarify here - you mean that when you play the purchased file back off your media player/drive, without any internet connection active at the time of playback, you often hear a gap during the playback?

[Dave2002]

Just to clarify here - you mean that when you play the purchased file back off your media player/drive, without any internet connection active at the time of playback, you often hear a gap during the playback?

That may be what rfg means, though downloads shouldn't generally have any of those problems. The only Issue I've ever had was with gaps between tracks, which certainly on one occasion drove me to purchase the CD. As mentioned in an earlier msg, there should be enough error correction to avoid any errors in downloaded material.

Can we be sure of this? There might be another problem, but let's confirm the symptoms first.

[richardfinegold]

Just to clarify here - you mean that when you play the purchased file back off your media player/drive, without any internet connection active at the time of playback, you often hear a gap during the playback?

Yes

[Dave2002]

Yes

Is there a wireless link in your playback system? Mobille phones or microwave ovens could cause gaps.

[richardfinegold]

Not in the playback, but in the recording of the download

[Dave2002]

Do you have other applications running during playback? For the time being let's assume the downloads are OK.

Perhaps there are interruptions, maybe due to buffer issues, or some other factors, which disrupt the playback. What kind of non mp3 files cause these glitches?

[Bryn]

Do you have other applications running during playback? For the time being let's assume the downloads are OK.

Perhaps there are interruptions, maybe due to buffer issues, or some other factors, which disrupt the playback. What kind of non mp3 files cause these glitches?

If Richard has an audio editor, even a free one such as Audacity, why not open one of the suspect files in that and look for a break in the waveform at the point the hiatus appears?

[Cockney Sparrow]

Do you have other applications running during playback? For the time being let's assume the downloads are OK.

Perhaps there are interruptions, maybe due to buffer issues, or some other factors, which disrupt the playback. What kind of non mp3 files cause these glitches?

Wouldn't the drop out occur in exactly the same place, time after time, if it was a flaw in the file downloaded?

If it was occurring in the replay (buffering, the local laptop system being "overstretched" momentarily) then it would occur in different places, and by being able to shutdown other programs using the laptop, it would be possible to eliminate it?

So if the mp3/FLAC/AIFF file is flawed,so not local replay factors - is it the case that the circumstances of the initial download could be the problem - if one's internet speed is very slow, or connection freezes/drops out** will that compromise the file integrity? If so, I would expect it to be a common problem and commented upon.

**(e.g. when all one's neighbours are watching a Sports match, people in the house all watching Netflix or whatever)

PS (on edit) - I am referring to downloads - e.g. a recording purchased from the Hyperion website and downloaded onto my PC, from which i replay it. So the problem is either inherent in the file stored on my hard disc, or in the replay system on the day I replay it).

Streaming - well with the various links in the chain of replay - e.g. Spotify's servers, the various internet routing/connections, then the wi-fi in my home, then my PC/MAC/ streaming device such as Chromecast audio - its not surprising there might be dropouts, etc - particularly if one's internet connection is slow.

[Anastasius]

Wouldn't the drop out occur in exactly the same place, time after time, if it was a flaw in the file downloaded?

If it was occurring in the replay (buffering, the local laptop system being "overstretched" momentarily) then it would occur in different places, and by being able to shutdown other programs using the laptop, it would be possible to eliminate it?

So if the mp3/FLAC/AIFF file is flawed,so not local replay factors - is it the case that the circumstances of the initial download could be the problem - if one's internet speed is very slow, or connection freezes/drops out** will that compromise the file integrity? If so, I would expect it to be a common problem and commented upon.

**(e.g. when all one's neighbours are watching a Sports match, people in the house all watching Netflix or whatever)

The dropout could be in the actual recording (and caused by the very reasons that you mention ie other things going on in the PC at the same time). Also the dropout could be caused by a glitch in the actual server providing the download.

A little clarification is required here I think as to what we actually mean by dropout. Is it that there is a brief break in the music but that it carries on - or is there an actual loss of a fragment of the music ?

EDIT: I think the problem could be caused by 'buffer underrun' which means that the data coming down the line isn't arriving fast enough sometimes to keep the audio buffer in the computer full enough to play music uninterrupted.

[Cockney Sparrow]

The dropout could be in the actual recording (and caused by the very reasons that you mention ie other things going on in the PC at the same time). Also the dropout could be caused by a glitch in the actual server providing the download.

A little clarification is required here I think as to what we actually mean by dropout. Is it that there is a brief break in the music but that it carries on - or is there an actual loss of a fragment of the music ?

EDIT: I think the problem could be caused by 'buffer underrun' which means that the data coming down the line isn't arriving fast enough sometimes to keep the audio buffer in the computer full enough to play music uninterrupted.

I've amended my post #28 to clarify I'm talking about downloaded files (e.g. purchased from Hyperion or iTunes).

Surely, in essence audio files are no different from all the other data (those 0s and 1s) transmitted over the internet. If there were regular omissions in those files, then data exchanged in all sorts of commercial, military, communication etc fields would be unreliable. I presume the software must have inbuilt methods to ensure that files are downloaded intact.