Streaming versus downloads

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  • Dave2002
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 18057

    Streaming versus downloads

    A few people have written here recently suggesting that streaming is now almost as good for most practical purposes as downloading, and there isn't the wait needed for downloading. Though at least one has commented that in some parts of the European continent downloading works, while streaming doesn't - even for audio/music.

    We have a BT Infinity connection, and a YouView box, and mostly we have been pleased with this. We sometimes watch catchup TV using the iPlayer channel, and mostly it seems good enough. We also have watched some live streaming channels Eurosport or BT Sport - for example to watch tennis from the US Open, which is mostly OK. This indicates that generally/usually the connection has sufficient bandwidth to give acceptable resuls.

    Tonight we tried to watch the episode of Beck - The Eye of the Storm - but after a while it became almost unwatchable, stopping every few seconds. Unfortunately by then we'd got into it a bit, so we wanted to stick with it. I did try downloading the whole thing on to my iPad Pro, but it was obvious that by the time it would have downloaded we would almost have got to the end. This almost turned out to be true. In fact the whole thing was downloaded while we had about 10 minutes left to watch on the video stream, which was still very poor. At that point I plugged in our Apple TV, and used Airplay to send the downloaded video to our TV, which was very satisfactory.

    I don't know why the BT Youview box was so poor tonight - normally streaming BBC on demand channels through that box has hadly any problems, but tonight it was dreadful. I wonder if we will have to resort to downloading all the on demand material we might want to watch from now on, in order to avoid this happening again. Obviously we'll have to download ahead of the game, but if we know that we're going to have to do that, then that won't be too bad.

    This is one of the few times I have found having an Apple TV has been helpful - as often I find it just doesn't provide what's needed, or doesn't work without hiccups.

    Have others noticed such a rapid deterioration in BT's iPlayer service? Maybe it's a one off glitch, which will go away.
    Last edited by Dave2002; 14-09-16, 08:21.
  • Eine Alpensinfonie
    Host
    • Nov 2010
    • 20577

    #2
    This highlights the problems of going virtual. You are left vulnerable to inadequacies over which you have little or no control.

    Comment

    • richardfinegold
      Full Member
      • Sep 2012
      • 7794

      #3
      I have been commenting here about this topic, but my comments were confined to Music, and your comments in this thread relate to a TV show. I think that these are separate categories but perhaps not. Truth be told I've only bought a few movies as opposed to renting them fron iTunes. I didn't buy movies in physical formats except for a few for my kids (Disney, Pixair, etc) so I just don't have an opinion
      About streaming and downloading music I have a lot of opinions and will briefly restate them here. MP3 downloads are easy and one can amazing bargains but also sometimes I've seen on Amazon where the MP3 can cost several times the CD price. The ease of MP3 downloading and the advent of streaming is killing off the CD. I know plenty of 20 somethings that don't own a single CD and are quite happy.
      Most streaming services stream at 320 bits or less and to my ears the quality of the stream vs MP3 download is indistinguishable .
      I've spent so much time on MP3 quality music because that is how 85% of the world gets it's music, including many forumites. Where things get interesting is when we get into Higher Resolution downloads, CD quality or higher. The issues of doing downloads, and comparing them to streaming services that offer the same quality, are much more complex and I will explore them in a subsequent post

      Comment

      • richardfinegold
        Full Member
        • Sep 2012
        • 7794

        #4
        Higher resolution downloads first get into the Mav v. Windows issues. For example, PrestoClassical only offers MP3 as Mac Compatible; otherwise it's FLAC and FLAC has to be converted to a a Mac format such as AIFF or ALAC. My recent troubles doing this have been documented here and I won't repeat them. I finally surrendered and play FLAC without my Computer but many people would like to use their MAcs. Even those that routinely do the conversion find it cumbersome.
        Computer audio in general intimidates a lot of people. The market is bursting with companies that offer the services of PCs but take the Computer out of the whole equation. Yamaha, Denon, Cocktail Audio, NAD, Blusound, Sonos , Linn, Naim and probably dozens of other companies are in this business. If this is such a vibrant sector of the market it shows that most people don't like using computers to access their music.
        High Resolution downloads can challenge your Internet service. The last one that I took 4 hours for one album. My iTunes downloads usually take about 2 minutes. The download times vary here by user and are probably due to factors over which we have minimal control.
        To be continued

        Comment

        • jayne lee wilson
          Banned
          • Jul 2011
          • 10711

          #5
          First and last base for all this is: how fast and reliable is your internet connection?

          I get BT Infinity in NW UK reliably at very high speeds. For video/film/tv (including iPlayer and all catch-up, Sky Cinema, Sky Sports etc), I use the Sky+ HD box and have found it totally reliable for about 3 years now. No stuttering, dropouts, or any other interruptions via Satellite dish or BT router. But this is usually on downloaded HD material, not live streaming. Some rented, some offered free with the subscription. If you live-stream HD TV or movies, you'll need a very hi-speed reliable connection, and a excellent router/computer/receiver (they vary considerably) to avoid unpredictable dropout, it's just a fact of real world life. Your internet provider may even reduce speeds during peak "bottlenecking" hours. Due to video content, it's far more demanding even than 24-bit classical music. Paying for higher speeds usually helps...

          As for music, all of the above applies. Even if you have access to 24-bit or lossless streaming, you are still relying on your internet connection which may vary with the demands of - region, neighbourhood, season, time of day etc. So I buy 24-bit or lossless downloads and play them back hardwired - via USB. Two years ago, I started trialling JRiver and Audirvana on the same Macbook Pro. Only problem I ever had was leaving the wireless connection switched on during playback - I would occasionally hear a crackle or gap, a dropout during playback. So I switched airport (and the potential for auto-upgrades or local interference) OFF - problem solved. Then I used a simple program to disable all unnecessary computer functions during audio replay (JRMC & Audirvana do some of this automatically anyway). Since then, USB hi-res playback has been as smooth, simple & reliable as playing a CD (and sounds better with later USB upgrades - filters & regeneration. Don't expect to get great sound - especially for complex classical works - without at least making SOME effort..)
          Yes, I like using computers anyway (Macs at least...). Buying an audio streamer/server such as Melco, Linn DX, Naim Uniti etc., may get you past some of these problems in one high-priced shot, yes, but: you'll need to be happy with the playback software they offer AND have some kind of tablet to navigate your music purchases and selections. Which, like any given smartphone, might not be easily app-compatible - and unless it's a big tablet, its display is frustratingly small. (Hence popularity of iPad + MacMini...which I seem perpetually on the verge of doing but never getting around to...).

          Downloading is good here: 24/96 albums only take a few minutes to download. And as I keep saying to a deafening silence, both the above players allow effortless playback of ANY format, and JRiver includes format-conversion from anything to anything, and takes just a few seconds. No agonising, virtually does it for you. Yet people go on punishing themselves with iTunes and all those other laborious, incomplete and compatibility-picky freeware offerings....

          I kept both Audirvana+ and JRiver on. Use one or other of them almost every day, exactly as I do a CD transport.
          As for streaming itself - more emotionally or ethereally, I would find it too casual for serious playback; I don't want the internet connection to a vast website of choices or potential favourites, I want to switch on my players and see my latest purchases, or the ones from say, a month ago, and see what I've played recently & how often, where my interest was aimed - as you do with that pile of discs next to your chair.

          BUT streaming has that one precious function - try before you buy. I don't use it that way myself, but that's just personal: if an album sparks my interest I just buy the thing anyway and have a good go at it. If I don't like it at first I may learn more by persisting, not a quick like/dislike trial-rejection... but I'm lucky enough to afford this luxury, of course.

          It all, always, comes down to YOU - what do you want, how much do you want it? The driver for my own efforts was : 24-bit pcm playback - I really wanted to do it well, to hear it & enjoy it. It took a while to get to where I wanted to go. ​C'est la Vie...
          But bear in mind that the $50 - $70 cost of my two favoured music players (I tried and rejected quite a few) is a small fraction of Hifi componentry, and a free trial is offered - is it really too much to ask?

          But if it is, or if you genuinely have unimprovably poor local internet provision - better stick to discs, whether SACD, CD, Blu-Ray, DVD, LP......
          Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 14-09-16, 16:12.

          Comment

          • richardfinegold
            Full Member
            • Sep 2012
            • 7794

            #6
            Your point about Internet Quality is well taken, Jayne but I think it isn't the only answer. My Internet connection is less than optimal, despite paying through the nose for what is my carrier's optimal service. My High Res downloads are probably effected by this (?), but my streaming Quality is excellent. I am listening right now to Mahler 4, Reiner/CSO, and not only could this pass for a recent recording but it also clearly bests the SACD version that RCA put out. However another forumites that I think resides in France relates that his streaming Quality is terrible but but his downloads are excellent! I don't know enough about IT to explain that, but your basic point is valid--if your ability to stream is limited, then clearly you are better off with Physical Media.
            I am glad that you and others have mastered programs like J River and Audirvana,. I have used XLD, Decibel, and a 2 week trial of Amarra. I was able to use them, but there was for each one a fair amount of frustration in the learning curve.
            My point is that many people must be intimidated by the complexities of Computer Audio and are seeking alternative technology that makes it simple. Thus the proliferation of devices designed to remove the Computder from the process.
            I agree that streaming is a great way to sample music before buying. I have been using Spotify for just that purpose and it has probably saved me from making many impulse purchases that would be clogging my shelves after perhaps 1 or 2 hearings. However, for the past two weeks I have been using a lossless service devoted to Classical Music that also plays high Res and it has really opened my eyes. For weeks I have been contemplating buying a new recording of Mahler 1 by Yannick SG and the Bavarian Radio Orchestra on their BR label. I just streamed it, in 24 bit, and yes it's drop dead gorgeous playing by an amazing Orchestra and a very exciting interpretation. I was about to buy it and then asked--why?
            I added to my favorites list and it's there and easily retrieved

            Between J River--does that program reorganize your music? Or does it piggy back on iTunes like Amarra does?
            Last edited by richardfinegold; 14-09-16, 02:08.

            Comment

            • jayne lee wilson
              Banned
              • Jul 2011
              • 10711

              #7
              JRiver is stand-alone comprehensive & independent - wouldn't go near it if it needed iTunes! As I've often said it did take a while to master...(if a thing's worth doing etc.)
              Audirvana offers you the choice, you can link it with iTunes if you want, but really, why bother... ease-of-use is skyhigh, no effort required.

              .

              Comment

              • richardfinegold
                Full Member
                • Sep 2012
                • 7794

                #8
                Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
                JRiver is stand-alone comprehensive & independent - wouldn't go near it if it needed iTunes! As I've often said it did take a while to master...(if a thing's worth doing etc.)
                Audirvana offers you the choice, you can link it with iTunes if you want, but really, why bother... ease-of-use is skyhigh, no effort required.

                .
                I had a lot of difficulty with Audirvana at first. I kept getting a message that it was changing download speed and this persisted for a few days. It also piggybacked on iTunes without another option offered. There are 3 Audirvana options offered for the free trial, perhaps I picked the wrong one to audition.

                Comment

                • Dave2002
                  Full Member
                  • Dec 2010
                  • 18057

                  #9
                  Msg 5 query - Re Internet connection, this morning Ping 22 ms, Download about 18.5 Mbps, Upload about 4 Mbps. We have had BT infinity for several years, and the TV box is provided by BT. Until yesterday there were hardly any problems. It is possible that the problems originated at the source - BBC server end - but the programme was virtually unwatchable.

                  Also, it's possible that in the future there won't be any other options than streaming or downloading. I still use DVDs and sometime Blu Rays. I often pick up used DVDs from Poundland. Consider the trailer we watched last night - Florence Foster Jenkins. I understand the film hasn't done well, so there might never be a DVD or Blu Ray. Even if this one does appear, in the future companies may just give up on physical formats altogether. This would apply to all forms of content, films, music, books etc.

                  The issues raised in this thread are not only about music, though I know that many here will be interested in music, which is very much less demanding than any form of video re the data transfers - though quality issues can be very significant.

                  Comment

                  • Dave2002
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 18057

                    #10
                    Today - watched the last of the singles matches from the Davis Cup via iPlayer (streaming) on the BT YouView box. Resolution seemed good enough, and no glitches at all. Perhaps the problems the other day trying to watch Beck from BBC Four were a one off - I hope so - as they were really a complete pain.

                    Sadly, GB lost - but at least we won last time round. Good luck to the Argentinians for the final - though perhaps I shouldn't take sides. Del Potro has become very formidable again. The Croatians did win once before - in 2005.

                    I don't think the iPlayer changes which will affect some boxes have kicked in yet. Maybe they're scheduled for the end of September.

                    Comment

                    • Dave2002
                      Full Member
                      • Dec 2010
                      • 18057

                      #11
                      ITV catchup - BT Youview - another problem

                      Another strange problem tonight. Not a transmission glitch as such, but an "unavailable content" problem on ITV catchup.
                      Because of the Davis Cup yesterday we filled up our PVR recording space, so we didn't get one of the few ITV programs worth watching - Victoria - recorded. Trying to pick it up tonight via the BT box, the ITV Hub App loaded, but it only showed the first four episodes of this series, so last night's was not available an hour ago. However, it was available on an iPad using the iPad App.

                      Very odd - and enough to make one wish that all this technology stuff could work better.

                      I gave up, and now am listening to Weinberg's Symphony 19 which I ordered recently from Amazon, instead.

                      Comment

                      • David-G
                        Full Member
                        • Mar 2012
                        • 1216

                        #12
                        Jayne, are Audirvana and J River specifically for Macs? As a Windows user, should I be taking an interest in them?

                        Comment

                        • richardfinegold
                          Full Member
                          • Sep 2012
                          • 7794

                          #13
                          I thin J River was developed for Windows and just came out with a Mac version a year or so aggo. jlw would know more about that. Don't know about Audirvana

                          Comment

                          • Stunsworth
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 1553

                            #14
                            Originally posted by David-G View Post
                            Jayne, are Audirvana and J River specifically for Macs? As a Windows user, should I be taking an interest in them?
                            Audirvana is Mac only.
                            Steve

                            Comment

                            • jayne lee wilson
                              Banned
                              • Jul 2011
                              • 10711

                              #15
                              Originally posted by David-G View Post
                              Jayne, are Audirvana and J River specifically for Macs? As a Windows user, should I be taking an interest in them?
                              JRiverMC began windows-only, but the first Mac version appeared in 2013. Mine is a 2014 build, 19.0.163, current one is 22. (Upgrades aren't offered free as per Audirvana+, so if it ain't broke...).
                              Worked pretty flawlessly so far. And really, though it can seem daunting when you first try to find your way around, most of my what-goes-where frustrations came about through our old friend human error - i.e Jayne being an idiot.

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