What is a DAW?

[Dave2002]

It's shit for MIDI as well
Ableton works
Garageband is an endless life of frustration

Sounds like my life - sometimes!

However, you are simply stating - in somewhat strong terms - an opinion, which up to now I have gone along with. I have found your comments generally helpful - for which I'm grateful - but for me, right now, GB seems OK. Maybe tomorrow it won't.

I've just generated a score and music for a Bourrée in B flat by Pachelbel (using MuseScore - another tool you don't seem to like) - took me about an hour with corrections, so now I'll see if it will import into GB.

You can hear the keyboard version on this CD via Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMBK49uY5EQ

It may very well be that you have tried all these tools, and the ones you are mentioning are significantly better for professionals (but at a cost) - but for some of us who aren't doing this all the time, some of the tools you don't seem to like, do seem to work well enough.

I have indeed heard good things about Ableton, but I've not got round to trying that or buying it.

In fairness, I may repeat some of this again tomorrow or later this week in Reaper.

[MrGongGong]

I just remembered another "issue" with GB
If you generate a multiple part score in another softare (like Sibelius)
then import it as several lines of MIDI into GB it ignores the rests at the start of some parts
SO what you get is every line starting at the same time EVEN if (for example) the viola part doesn't come in until bar 36

[Dave2002]

I just remembered another "issue" with GB
If you generate a multiple part score in another software (like Sibelius)
then import it as several lines of MIDI into GB it ignores the rests at the start of some parts
SO what you get is every line starting at the same time EVEN if (for example) the viola part doesn't come in until bar 36

OK - I'll watch out for, and perhaps test for that. Presumably that complaint also applies to Logic - or do Apple actually maintain some of their software better than others [programs]. Also, it's so blatantly c**p if that was a problem - wouldn't they have fixed it by now?

[MrGongGong]

OK - I'll watch out for, and perhaps test for that. Presumably that complaint also applies to Logic - or do Apple actually maintain some of their software better than others [programs]. Also, it's so blatantly c**p if that was a problem - wouldn't they have fixed it by now?

Why should they fix it?
It works well enough for most of the folks who use it and simply want to play with readymade loops etc

Many folks who edit moving image are equally cheesed off with the "new" Final Cut Pro which has become an "adult" version of iMovie ....

Don't know about Logic any more

One reason I dislike GB so much is that I work in education a lot and have spent hours and hours "fixing" scores made in it by youngsters so that parts can be printed out to be played.
Also I end up in schools where all they have are iPads (or tablets) and GB and then we want to go and record our own sounds and simply import/export them....which is a total pain in the arse and takes several operations.... my working life often involved being in a room with 30 teenagers and recording us playing then getting the sound instantly into software to listen back/edit/select etc etc ... GB is hopeless of this , far too slow and clunky even if I spent hours learning it.

[Dave2002]

One reason I dislike GB so much is that I work in education a lot and have spent hours and hours "fixing" scores made in it by youngsters so that parts can be printed out to be played.
Also I end up in schools where all they have are iPads (or tablets) and GB and then we want to go and record our own sounds and simply import/export them....which is a total pain in the arse and takes several operations.... my working life often involved being in a room with 30 teenagers and recording us playing then getting the sound instantly into software to listen back/edit/select etc etc ... GB is hopeless of this , far too slow and clunky even if I spent hours learning it.

I sympathise about that. I agree with you that GB is pretty hopeless for the situations you have described. It also won’t import MusicXML files - though perhaps you wouldn’t expect it to. Other score writing systems do permit that.

I don’t know enough about the history of Logic and GB, but it seems they were developed around the late 1980s - before XML really started to become mainstream. The same actually applies to Sibelius, which also goes way back (1990s? Wasn’t it actually before that? Early versions ran on Archimedes machines.), but it has kept up and will work with Midi and xml. It’s possible that the developers of newer DAWs have made use of more modern software techniques. For some older DAWs (or indeed any software) the vendors may have had the software updated or in some cases completely rewritten, while some may just not bother. This is often a problem. Many years ago I was involved in software development, and we designed it to be portable - using various techniques. One rather major package was rewritten several times. Initially the teams wanted to simply keep updating, but I pushed for portability, which eventually led to significant rewrites, but the methods used did make it much easier to do rewrites if needed.

Apple took over the software for Logic from another company, and may not have addressed the issues in the same way.

[Dave2002]

The Fairlight is part of the package but I've rarely used it and only for basics. I think its one of the main buttons at the foot of the page. Sorry not to be more help. Amazing that its free with only a few esoteric xtras that you get in the paid package - which I did purchase, but really no need!

I already had a version of Da Vinci Resolve installed, but it seemed to have stopped working properly, so I downloaded the latest version. It does indeed seem to contain the Fairlight DAW - or at least a cut down version of that, but I'm not sure what it can do yet. At least the latest version does seem to do something - even if only playing an mp3 file imported into one of the panels in the interface. That's not my highest priority, but I will add it to my list of things to check out.

Thanks for mentioning it.

[Dave2002]

I just remembered another "issue" with GB
If you generate a multiple part score in another softare (like Sibelius)
then import it as several lines of MIDI into GB it ignores the rests at the start of some parts
SO what you get is every line starting at the same time EVEN if (for example) the viola part doesn't come in until bar 36

OK - but does Reaper, or any other DAW do this sort of thing better? I just don't know.

FWIW I tried adding a bass drum part in the very last bar of the short piece I've been working on. That didn't work too well, so I substituted timpani, which worked. I found though that when I exported the audio and the Midi to GB, that the tracks were actually running at completely different speeds, even though they were both supposedly at crotchet = 200. Maybe I need to check this again, but it did seem to me that there is an issue there.

However, GB did do a rather pathetic attempt at a timpani at the end of the second time repeat of the final section (Midi) - though it did have a whole bunch of empty bars beforehand - which was more or less correct.

You asked why Apple should fix problems. I'm not sure - if they really don't give a ... about users like me and you who want some things to work. If they only want boy bands (or girl bands - better be PC) and people who play around endlessly with drum kits, then obviously they're not going to give a stuff. However, if they wanted me to "upgrade" to Logic and part with around £200, they might make more effort. Since they don't have a trial for that, there seems little point, unless they take updates and fixes more seriously. I would pay to get something which works. I wouldn't want to pay the money in the hope that something which doesn't work well in GB would actually be OK in Logic.

Of the other DAWS currently available, one of the Cubase ones seems to be quite highly recommended (though by which type of user group) and we have previously discussed Ableton here.

I want something which is good at audio, and also good at the music side of things. Maybe I will get there in the end.

One thing also which might be a problem in the education field - I was surprised not to long ago to talk to a student in a school who was interested in "doing music" - and when I asked about what software he was using he mentioned Sibelius. I'm not sure all schools would subscribe to or use Sibelius. He didn't realise that it is a major package for composers and musicians. One big problem is that many parents and students, particularly in less affluent areas, would not be able to afford to buy Sibelius to run on their computers - and some might still not be able to afford a computer. This is probably not the case in the "affluent" SE, but in other parts of the country it could well be an issue. Also with school budgets very much under strain, despite the counters from the HMG Cons, it's often music, arts and drama which suffer cuts before anything else. Obviously these subjects don't really matter at all (I write as a former scientist/mathematician) so it will have little impact on our society as a whole.

[MrGongGong]

OK - but does Reaper, or any other DAW do this sort of thing better? I just don't know.
.

Yes

Sibelius have been very good at selling into education with cut down versions and discounts etc
It's NOT perfect but is what most people use... though Finale is popular in many places.

Many of us had the old "crack" of Cubase in the 1990s which worked well on the Atari

[Dave2002]

Sibelius have been very good at selling into education with cut down versions and discounts etc
It's NOT perfect but is what most people use... though Finale is popular in many places.

From what I've seen so far Sibelius is pretty good, though I'm not sure if Dorico might be as good or better.
Regarding schools, the disaster of limited funding, even if the vendors of Sibelius are selling into some at low prices, is surely having an impact. Often schools in the UK now claim they can't afford to keep a music teacher - which realistically they can't because they don't have enough money to keep even some core activities going. Underfunding in state schools is dire, even though the government denies it. Presumably in most schools which make an attempt at using tools like Sibelius it is the music teacher who deals with that, though in some there might be interest and/or help from some technology teachers.

[MrGongGong]

From what I've seen so far Sibelius is pretty good, though I'm not sure if Dorico might be as good or better.
Regarding schools, the disaster of limited funding, even if the vendors of Sibelius are selling into some at low prices, is surely having an impact. Often schools in the UK now claim they can't afford to keep a music teacher - which realistically they can't because they don't have enough money to keep even some core activities going. Underfunding in state schools is dire, even though the government denies it. Presumably in most schools which make an attempt at using tools like Sibelius it is the music teacher who deals with that, though in some there might be interest and/or help from some technology teachers.

Music education is being systematically dismantled
and no-one who could make a difference really gives a sh*t
Sadly that is the situation we are in

[Dave2002]

Music education is being systematically dismantled
and no-one who could make a difference really gives a sh*t
Sadly that is the situation we are in

It’s not only music. Drama and art are also not doing well. Lose all of these and schools can’t put on shows, and give kids a whole range of experiences. Of course these are not important.

[MrGongGong]

It’s not only music. Drama and art are also not doing well. Lose all of these and schools can’t put on shows, and give kids a whole range of experiences. Of course these are not important.

But they WILL "put on shows"
part of the problem stems from viewing Arts subjects as being just about "putting on shows"
or being something that exists to "help" other subjects along the lines of
music will make you better at maths and so on

(I was sent this yesterday https://www.researchgate.net/publica...Kc93CJcpVKxKuo)

[Dave2002]

There's a high end video editor (which includes cut-down Fairlight DAW) as used by Hollywood etc which is completely free called Da Vinci (by Black Magic).

There may be more than one version of Fairlight, but the one included in the free Da Vinci Resolve package does not appear to know about Midi. This means that if one wants to work with audio and midi tracks that is not a possible option withi this software. Maybe this isn't a common feature in video editors - the assumption being that one will get the audio work done outside the video package.

It is possible with Garageband to do some work with video - though there the likelihood is that one has already worked out most of the video, and is then trying to put a soundtrack with timing on to the video. I assume - though I've not been able to check - that Logic has the same or similar feature. It should be possible to use Midi with GB - though as noted it may not always work well.

Here is a Youtube video showing how to associate sound with a silent film - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k-hzRmMmtI&t=14s

It is usualy possible to do some manipulation of audio tracks in video editors, so maybe for film production, either working with Midi is less important, or maybe more likely, the part of the work which relies on midi gets done beforehand in other tools. Different approaches might be taken depending on which is felt to be more important - the sound tracks or the video. For some films the sound including music is subservient to the visual action, so the music and sound might be compromised to suit that in some way, while for some others (for example films about music, composers, musicians) the sound track might drive the film, so the visual clips would have to fit the sound, rather than the other way round. For commercial film production, I think the production processes may constrain things in such as way that potential interaction issues are reduced. Whether that is a good thing artistically I can't say.

[Dave2002]

Some curiosities in importing midi into two DAWS - Garageband and Reaper.

Garageband is hopeless at recognising time signatures, and will map notes all over the place. However, it does recognise the key of a piece - if it is recognisable. It is also hopeless at getting the timings right - with erratic tempi. It also seems to treat some individual notes as chords - which I suspect depend on what instruments are declared.

Reaper, on the other hand seems a bit better with time signatures - well bar lines at least. It doesn't seem to note that a piece in 3/4 might be notated with a time signature at the start of a stave, but it does at least get most of the notes right, with the bar lines in appropriate places. For a piece in F, it tends to represent B flat as A sharp.

There is little doubt in my mind that score writing tools, such as Sibelius, Dorico, Finale and even MuseScore do a very much better job for anyone who wants to work with musical notation, but there may still be benefits in coupling these software tools with a DAW, even a flawed one. Users may need to familiarise themselves with the quirks - whch may be significant and many - of each system in order to get the best out of these.

[MrGongGong]

Some curiosities in importing midi into two DAWS - Garageband and Reaper.

Garageband is hopeless at recognising time signatures, and will map notes all over the place. However, it does recognise the key of a piece - if it is recognisable. It is also hopeless at getting the timings right - with erratic tempi. It also seems to treat some individual notes as chords - which I suspect depend on what instruments are declared.

Reaper, on the other hand seems a bit better with time signatures - well bar lines at least. It doesn't seem to note that a piece in 3/4 might be notated with a time signature at the start of a stave, but it does at least get most of the notes right, with the bar lines in appropriate places. For a piece in F, it tends to represent B flat as A sharp.

There is little doubt in my mind that score writing tools, such as Sibelius, Dorico, Finale and even MuseScore do a very much better job for anyone who wants to work with musical notation, but there may still be benefits in coupling these software tools with a DAW, even a flawed one. Users may need to familiarise themselves with the quirks - whch may be significant and many - of each system in order to get the best out of these.

MIDI is simply a way of mapping note number events, controller data and timing events.... I don't think it was ever built with "time signatures" in mind....BUT if you really want to do this then Logic or Cubase would be the tools i've seen folks use most for that kind of thing.

I think your statement

"Garageband is hopeless" is spot on
it claims to be able to do this but is, as you say, hopeless