Microphones - Rolls Royce vs Ford Escort!

[Dave2002]

I am interested in digital recorders, such as the various Zoom or Tascam models. I think Sony do some too.

I have experience of a Zoom Q2HD recorder - which was adequate, though I actually recorded using a Sony mic and a Minidisc recorder.
I also have a recording made using an unknown mic attached to a Sony camcorder - which has compressed audio - and which doesn't sound as clear IMO, possibly because of the Dolby compression.

I found this thread on another site (Mandolin Cafe - http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...-enough-for-CD) which presents different views on Zoom H4n microphones.

Clearly some users think that a mic, such as a Zoom H4n is good enough for their purposes, while others think that the microphones aren't good enough for pro purposes, and to produce a quality CD.
Yet interestingly there is a comment about a commercial recording which was "rescued" which was made on much lesser equipment -

P.S. the classic example of how professional mastering can deliver an acceptable commercial CD from a very basic source (much more basic and low-quality than the H4), is Bruce Springsteen's "Nebraska" album years ago. It was recorded on a cheap cassette tape multitrack recorder with a pair of SM57 mics, and then "rescued" and polished with professional mastering as a commercial release. Here's the story, from the Tascam site: http://tascam.com/news/display/226/

Not that I'm a great fan of Bruce Springsteen - I hardly know his work - but it's an interesting comment. It's definitely worth reading that story, too.

Looking at various reviews and posts re microphones and recorders, it does look as though some are noticeably better than others, with lower noise etc., but there may be quite a few which are good enough for most practical purposes. I suspect that recording techniques are also a factor, and some people may want close mics, and to mix a final version from multiple sources.

For my purposes I would probably be most interested in something which could give results as good as or better than the recordings I have made on Minidisc, but without the bother of having to use those MD recorders. I can see that some devices, such as some of the Zoom models, do have microphones (possibly swappable) but also allow the attachment of external mics. Maybe they offer the best overall compromise.

I can synchronise audio to video if needed, having finally figured out some good ways of doing that, so I'm probably most interested in audio recorders here, though if there are any video recorders (camcorders) with integrated microphones or the capability of external connections which do have good audio they may also be of interest.

I don't really want to spend a fortune - but if I got really keen I could perhaps spend £500, or buy good kit from eBay.

Comments?

[MrGongGong]

These folks are very knowledgeable in my experience

http://www.solidstatesound.co.uk/choose_by_all_portables.htm

I currently mostly use a Sony PCM-D50 which has now been superseded by a new model and is a really great recorder.
I would be a bit wary of some of the cheaper Zoom models (I have a H2) as they are sometimes a bit noisy and the build quality isn't always great
but i've heard good things about the H6 model

[Dave2002]

Thanks for H6 "recommendation". It is one I have noted - and has I think 2 mic. modules in the kit - a MS combination, and another so-called XY, plus 4 external inputs.
I wouldn't know, at this stage, what to use for external mics, or indeed if I'd need any for my purposes.

I think the H6 is supposedly less noisy than some of the other models, though doesn't have surround sound built in, which I think the 4n model does - actually no!
It might be the 2n model which has the surround feature, with 5 mics in-built - and you say that the 2s are noisy, so I'll have to think about that.

It's early days yet, re making a decision, which in fact may never materialise - though I have been asked to do recordings later in the year,
somewhat despite my rather rough and ready attempts last year. Actually I think the audio last time was OK - but the video, which I'm still massaging, has been a bit of a mess.

Years ago I was recommended a Sony, but that model has almost certainly been superseded now. I'm not up to speed with the Sony range,
nor indeed some of the others - e.g Tascam.

I'll start perusing the solidstatesound pages.

[Bryn]

Unless you need 6 inputs, rather than the H6 you might like to consider the H5. It takes the same clip-on modules but has just 2 XLR/6.5mm jack inputs with phantom power option, plus the shock protected twin mic module . That module can be replace by one offering 2 XLR/6.5mm jacks (though this time without a phantom power provision). The standard H6 mic module is not shock protected.

Re. the H2, the more recent H2n is a vast improvement on it. Instead of the H2's 4 mic capsules, it had 5 (2 for X/Y and the other 3 for mid/side in the opposite direction. With either H5 or the H2n, surround is pretty straight forward if you have the means to edit the 4 channel recorded.

Oh, and the noise levels of the H2n and H5 are way down on the earlier models. Both also have the great advantage of seamlessly opening new files when the 2GB file size limit is reached. I have used an H2n to record live performances of both SQ2 and For Philip Guston by Morton Feldman. I was a simple matter to edit the files together with Sound Forge and burn at 48/24 to DVD with Audio DVD Creator. The only problem there is that Audio DVD Creator appears to be incompatible with any Windows version later than XP. For that reason I maintain an old XP laptop just for that role.

Ah, and beware the H6/H5 MS module. I has had some pretty negative reviews.

[Dave2002]

Thanks Bryn,

It looks as though your suggestions do have the merits of cheapness, and if those mics are as good as you say (i.e much improved over earlier versions) they may be good enough.
I'll check them out further. At the low price end they are unlikely to cause too many domestic problems.

While I'm here, I noticed that a few of this kind of device - not sure which - support a format I'd not heard of before - bwf - Broadcast Wave Format - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcast_Wave_Format - which appears to be a variant of .wav format, with the addition of time codes (may actually be a subset of .wav). Right now time codes are probably not too common in consumer equipment, but I gather that some newer devices do have rather more absolute time codes which they derive from GPS satellite systems. Perhaps in a few years most kit will have that capability.

[Dave2002]

This place seems to have the H2n model for under £100 - so might be worth checking out - http://www.eglobalcentral.co.uk/zoom...Faoy0wod_00NlQ

Amazon have it with a 2 Gbyte card - but they're cheap as chips now - so not necessarily worth paying another £14-15. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Zoom-Portab.../dp/B005CQ2ZY6

I don't know the eGlobal Supplier, but if the goods are OK there shouldn't really be a problem, hopefully!

Is the accessory pack worth having - another £23 or so from Amazon? - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Zoom-307687...9P0EJ6SECN89SQ

[Bryn]

This place seems to have the H2n model for under £100 - so might be worth checking out - http://www.eglobalcentral.co.uk/zoom...Faoy0wod_00NlQ

Amazon have it with a 2 Gbyte card - but they're cheap as chips now - so not necessarily worth paying another £14-15. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Zoom-Portab.../dp/B005CQ2ZY6

I don't know the eGlobal Supplier, but if the goods are OK there shouldn't really be a problem, hopefully!

Is the accessory pack worth having - another £23 or so from Amazon? - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Zoom-307687...9P0EJ6SECN89SQ

When I got mine a couple of years ago, shortly after it hit the streets, I opted for a deal which included the accessories kit. The case is the main thing. Very useful. The remote has rather limited functionality. I have never used it. There are far better (hairy) windshields to be had, for a price, if you need such.

Look out for a PM.

[Dave2002]

Look out for a PM.

PM in return. You may not have been notified.

[Dave2002]

This page has some suggestions for the "best" microphones - https://www.amazon.co.uk/b?node=9784...51JCJNX7SC60SS

I wonder if there are now any good ones which work wirelessly. There are several USB microphones, which can work with tablets, but surely there must now be some wireless microphones, which may even more versatility - if they are of good enough quality.

[MrGongGong]

This page has some suggestions for the "best" microphones - https://www.amazon.co.uk/b?node=9784...51JCJNX7SC60SS

I wonder if there are now any good ones which work wirelessly. There are several USB microphones, which can work with tablets, but surely there must now be some wireless microphones, which may even more versatility - if they are of good enough quality.

There are some fantastic wireless microphones about
BUT in my experience you really need to spend serious amounts of money to get something reliable and 'clean'
I sometimes hire them for specific projects but unless I was going to use them every day I wouldn't consider buying.

[Bryn]

Not, perhaps specifically belonging to this thread's title but I have only just become aware of a new Zoom device, the H3-VR, aimed principally at 'virtual reality' applications, it looks to be a low cost 'analogue' of a soundfield recorder. I have not found any reviews offering a serious technical appraisal, but it does look interesting. Possibly enough so for me to invest in some basic ios device to use with its optional remote control app. Maybe a refurbished iPad mini2 would do the trick?

[Richard Barrett]

Not, perhaps specifically belonging to this thread's title but I have only just become aware of a new Zoom device, the H3-VR, aimed principally at 'virtual reality' applications, it looks to be a low cost 'analogue' of a soundfield recorder. I have not found any reviews offering a serious technical appraisal, but it does look interesting. Possibly enough so for me to invest in some basic ios device to use with its optional remote control app. Maybe a refurbished iPad mini2 would do the trick?

That looks quite interesting. I presume there might be some third-party software out in the world to convert Ambisonic to 8.0 rather than 5.1, which might make the Zoom device very interesting to me.

[MrGongGong]

That looks quite interesting. I presume there might be some third-party software out in the world to convert Ambisonic to 8.0 rather than 5.1, which might make the Zoom device very interesting to me.

It does look interesting
I'll have a look to see if anyone has tested it against a "real" Soundfield mic

There was an interesting talk at BeastFeast last year from Olly Larkin who was doing some interesting multichannel things with Reaper (as others have as well) so i'm sure folk will have ways of conversion to 8.0. Maybe ask on the CEC list ? or some of the nerdy FB groups ?

I'm not 100% convinced by the build quality (and sound quality) of Zoom gear but you do get a lot for your money

[Bryn]

It does look interesting
I'll have a look to see if anyone has tested it against a "real" Soundfield mic

There was an interesting talk at BeastFeast last year from Olly Larkin who was doing some interesting multichannel things with Reaper (as others have as well) so i'm sure folk will have ways of conversion to 8.0. Maybe ask on the CEC list ? or some of the nerdy FB groups ?

I'm not 100% convinced by the build quality (and sound quality) of Zoom gear but you do get a lot for your money

Re. Zoom build quality, I think they have learned a lot since their early efforts. The H5, H6, H4n Pro and even the little H1n have significantly improved build and capsule protection qualities than the early models. I do not intend rushing into getting the H3-VR, guessing that they will release an improved version in a year or two.

[Bryn]

I think the next option up in price would be a Zoom H6 with Rode or Sennheiser ambisonics mic. That would cost around 4 times as much but would offer rather superior microphone capsules, I would think.