Change in backup philosophy - Mac related

[Anastasius]

We have two elderly iMacs - his'n'hers - and locally backup each using SuperDuper to an external drive alongside each iMac. I also run the excellent Scannerz program that logs the performance of the internal drive (and external backup, for that matter) and measures the seek time for each sector and compares it with the timings from earlier runs. If the seek time starts to increase for some sectors then that is a pretty good early warning system of impending disk failure.

I have also been backing up both iMacs using Time Machine to a Time Capsule located physically remotely via ethernet. It is an early generation TC and so sometime back started to exhibit the over-heating problems inherent in the design, the internal disk got very unhappy and so I added an external drive. However, whenever I have tried to recover the odd-file it's always seemed to take forever and a day and when I tried to restore one of the iMacs post-venture into El Crappo I found that the necessary recovery software was missing on the iMac. And the other day I got the 'verification failed' message from TM aka Time Machine has just screwed up all your backups and you'll need to start again.

So, I've decided that as I'm the 'power-user' per se and the one most likely to accidentally over-write a file using Save it's better if I bring in the Time Capsule and plug it into my iMac locally using a faster interface if possible. And ignore it as a potential backup for a full recovery.

For remote backup, I've just bought a Western Digital NAS and will partition it in two - one for each iMac - and then backup using SuperDuper (at least that is the plan). So if disaster strikes at home then at least we still have our data, photos etc even though the house is a smoking pile.

We shall see how it pans out.

[Dave2002]

I wish you luck with that.

There are quite a few issues. FIrstly, the users. In my experience the 'power user' possibly has to do most of the work, and make most of the decisions, though may also do quite a few other things which are perhaps not "best practice". It is quite likely that none of the users will bother about backups until it's too late - and this includes the 'power user'. Doing reliable backups probably requires a minimum of two additional storage drives, each capable of holding at least the whole of the capacity of the main drive for each machine. More storage devices might be needed if more than none backup software system is used. If backup software such as Time Machine is used, then the backup drive has to be capable of holding more than contents of the main drive, as such software may also be capable of recovering deleted files.

There is a time cost (including faff!) if backups are done explicity, by manual intervention. Many of us are not good at organising ourselves to do that. Backing up other people's machines also requires their cooperation, which isn't always forthcoming.

Automatic backup systems seem like a great idea, as in theory they need little intervention. Unfortunately they can go wrong, and there are several ways that that can happen. Software such as TM might actually fail to backup files for quite a long while before any recovery is needed, at which point users might realise that it's not just one or two files which haven't been backed up, but months of work. Assuming that an automatic backup system is working might be a mistake, and could actually be worse than doing explicit backups. Even if an automatic backup system has been recording changes, there is always the possibility that a catastrophic failue of the storage device might render all the backup work useless. Sod's law dictates that this will happen at the worst possible moment.

Other possibilities are to use online backup storage, though that raises privacy issues, or one's own network based storage system. My own experience of NAS devices so far has not been good - with both network failures and device failures - possibly one causing the other. I have also not been too convinced about using one backup system for multiple computers, though units such as the Airport Time Capsule claim to be able to do this. I have tried using one large drive to backup several machines using TM, though without using the wireless connections. The impression I had was that it didn't work, and that even if one machine was backed up safely, backing up another, could end up with neither being safely backed up. I am veering back towards the view that each machine needs its own backup devices, possibly several to cope with different eventualities. In addition, I use a fairly ad hoc approach to files, as some do get stored on other media - e.g photos on memory sticks, or on SDHC cards, and by spreading the files around, generally most of the most wanted files are safe or recoverable.

It also helps to evaluate files by category, and some files which may be lost will have little impact. Thus for most of us it doesn't really matter if the video of a TV series from a few months ago, downloaded from a PVR perhaps, gets erased - hardly life threatening. Similarly, if files from a ripped CD or DVD are lost, then providing the originals are still available, the files can be reconstituted. It also helps to evaluate each file. A ripped video file may take up a lot of space, but losing it would have little real impact, but losing photos, audio or video of personal events - may represent a maor loss for most of us. Users should be encouraged to evaluate their files, and protect with multiple copies, multiple devices, or otherwise, anything which is particularly valuable to them.

One classic example is of course the well known student problem - "I'd just finished typing my thesis when my computer crashed". This really does happen - though in some cases it may be uncertain and simply an excuse. Any work or data which is likely to be of high value should be protected with a very high priority, and if there are/were intermediate versions, they should be kept as well, to enable recovery or reconstruction - though "obviously" not on one single vulnerable storage device or system. Users need to think about failure, and what happens "if". The thesis example is quite a good one. Text can be rewritten, but experimental results and data may be much harder to recover.

[Cockney Sparrow]

Sorry to intrude with experience from the non Apple World.

I met my daughter for a student concert, to be told her laptop was as dead as a doornail, with 2 essays to be submitted 3 days later ! She was lucky - an IT help technician on site managed to pull the files off her Hard Drive (we suspect terminal motherboard failure) and she got them in on time...

Her sister (always more methodical and organised, recently graduated) said to her despairingly "didn't you email the drafts to yourself???".

Said daughter now has a Chromebook which at modest cost, will suit her very well for the remaining years of Uni work, and it will all be "in the cloud" automatically. (And of course, for music, its all from Spotify.....)

Given the price of storage on backup drives (which is now well below my former benchmark of £40 per Terrabyte) , I run a rosta of complete images of our home PCs (and did for the laptop during University holidays) using Acronis True Image. And I rotate them so that one is not in our house.....

Its amazing to think that 20 years ago computers were far more peripheral in my personal life. Now, not least with digital photographs, it would be a grievous loss if all that data suddenly became inaccessible......

[Anastasius]

Dave2002....the Wd My Cloud arrived today and is a resounding FAILURE! Not appropriate for my intended purpose whatsoever. You have to use WD's own software and for starters one key component is Windows only although they say it is Mac compatible. Yes, it is and some of their noddy s/w does work. But that is what it is...noddy software. Just glad I bought it from Amazon. It goes back tomorrow.

Back to the drawing board.

[Dave2002]

Sorry to intrude with experience from the non Apple World.

I met my daughter for a student concert, to be told her laptop was as dead as a doornail, with 2 essays to be submitted 3 days later ! She was lucky - an IT help technician on site managed to pull the files off her Hard Drive (we suspect terminal motherboard failure) and she got them in on time...

Her sister (always more methodical and organised, recently graduated) said to her despairingly "didn't you email the drafts to yourself???".

Said daughter now has a Chromebook which at modest cost, will suit her very well for the remaining years of Uni work, and it will all be "in the cloud" automatically. (And of course, for music, its all from Spotify.....)

Given the price of storage on backup drives (which is now well below my former benchmark of £40 per Terrabyte) , I run a rosta of complete images of our home PCs (and did for the laptop during University holidays) using Acronis True Image. And I rotate them so that one is not in our house.....

Its amazing to think that 20 years ago computers were far more peripheral in my personal life. Now, not least with digital photographs, it would be a grievous loss if all that data suddenly became inaccessible......

CockneyS

I have lots of experience with students, both in my family and elsewhere. Mailing non confidential documents to oneself is a good idea, and also to other trusted members, as it does at least get copies off one's own kit, and they can usually, but not always, be accessed again quite quickly.

I am by no means completely satisfied with "the cloud" or even Apple's (and probably Microsoft's as well) attempts to force everything that way. There is data that IMO should not go onto third party sites, and unless users have adequate control over what does/does not go that way, I would still advise them to be wary.

I hope your daughter's Chromebook is up to the required tasks. That would depend on how demanding she is, and the work she is required to do.

A couple of other points re storing essays etc. in the cloud or in emails.

1. In failure cases (i.e no local copy) it is possible that a communications failure will also restrict access to the document(s). Some universities might accept an excuse and allow a late submission (once the files have been retrieved), but some may not, and that would be a significant disadvantage.

Universities may well have policies which would in any case penalise students for late submission for any reason, as otherwise students could claim to have technical problems in order to gain a time advantage.

Sending emails is a way of keeping the data "active", but it may not be too wise to discuss this. It has not been unknown for students to send email to each other - for whatever reason - and then one or other is accused of plagiarism, with the possible result that either zero marks are awarded, or disciplinary action is taken. It is also the case that some departments do not distinguish between a student plagiarising another's work, a student allowing another student access to his or her own work. There have been cases where a student has given work to another to hand in "on time" - very possibly for practical reasons, and the student messenger has then copied the work and submitted it as his/her own, perhaps with slight modification. Unravelling that can be time consuming, and the outcome may not be to either student's advantage.

Even students sending emails with documents for proof-reading, which in itself is a good practice, but needs to be declared, has to be handled carefully, particularly in cases where students are suspected of submitting similar work. It's an unhappy minefield.

2. Another reason for not relying on cloud storage, for example for large documents, is that it may simply take a very long while for documents to be uploaded and downloaded. If a student creates a thesis (say 100+ pages) over a period of weeks, each upload may not take long, but trying to recover the whole thing for final printing can take a long while, and is really not recommended.

Anyway, check out the Ultra Fit SanDisk USB 3 sticks which are good value at Amazon - the 64 Gbyte ones are under £15. There are even cheaper 64 Gbyte USB 2 sticks, but the USB 3 ones are probably better - heck under £15! The only downside of those is that they're so small they might get lost. For a slightly less portable solution, Samsung 1 Tbyte drives are available for about £40. Cheaper than having to pay to have a thesis retyped, or even having to retake a year .... or worse.

[Anastasius]

I'm with you Dave as far as cloud storage for backup purposes is concerned. It's great for allowing a work group to have common access to files but just to backup (slow) and then restore (probably even slower) is pointless.

Back to my own 'project'...I don't have any issue or problem with automatic backups. Using something like SuperDuper is a no-brainer. IT's schedule works flawlessly and it's backups work flawlessly. Moreover if you have the right external drive then the drive is also bootable. You just need to be rigorous in periodically booting up from it to check it boots up fine.

I did ask SuperDuper if they could recommend an external drive that would work over ethernet but their view was that doing backups this way was unreliable. I'm not quite sure why they would say this....possibly data contention on a busy network? Regardless, there do not appear to be any drives that I can find that are able to be plugged directly into ethernet other than NAS (which seem to be fixated on using their own software or having your own local cloud).

I currently have a WD My Book attached to my iMac and this is my main SuperDuper backup. It is now playing up which is freaking me out. It was working fine but I switched it off to check the model number but now after turning it back on, it refuses to spring into action. So, I resurrected an old Freecom drive and am now backing up the whole Mac as I type this. It happens to be daisy-chained off the back of the WD My Book and so effectively tells me that the cable from Mac to the My Book is OK....

I have my eye on a Freecom drive that has Firewire 800 and USB 3. I believe that one can get an Ethernet to USB3 adapter. So the plan would be to use this new Freecom withe adapter as the remote storage using SuperDuper. And, because it has Firewire 800 it should be bootable on the Mac in extremis (if it has the Oxford chipset and I have a question out to Freecom support about this).

Maybe the philosophy is flawed and that one only bothers to backup the data and not the whole computer....but it's been a long time since one had a DVD or CD with the OS on it. You'd need to keep a record of all your application licence numbers somewhere safe, copies of the applications or even a list of the applications that you have on your machine....too complicated to keep up-to-date and so far easier to make a clone.

I did wonder about an external SSD drive but my elderly iMac is only USB 1 and so will take forever to do any backups.

[Dave2002]

I did wonder about an external SSD drive but my elderly iMac is only USB 1 and so will take forever to do any backups.

USB 1? Were there any iMacs with that?

[Dave2002]

Backup or Backoff?

I am now perhaps about to do a radical restructuring on one of my machines. Currently it is fairly full of files on the hard drive, and is running Mountain Lion.

I recently did a backup of another machine, using CCC (Carbon Copy Cloner) - which was also running Mountain Lion. I checked that the backup drive was bootable, and then installed El Capitan. Reading the instructions for CCC it does not appear to be suitable for Yosemite, but that wasn't a problem for backing up Mountain Lion. Hopefully there weren't any gotchas with the ML backup - and if necessary it would be possible to completely restore the state to ML with the files as they were, and also to boot up that state on other machines. I'm assuming that although CCC was used as a tool (I used the trial version) that it wouldn't prevent future access to that drive. I have done the transfers, and there should not be any reason why CCC should interfere in future installs or boots. To make a loose analogy, I've banged in the nails - it shouldn't now matter what hammer I used to do that.

Obviously, if I continue to use CCC, for example for partial backups in the future, I'd need to pay the license fee.

However, it looks as though Super Duper would do the same job, and hopefully there are no constraints on backing up Yosemite or later OSs.

My intention is as follows:

1. To back off the whole of the particular iMac to a bootable HDD.

2. To delete a significant part of the files currently installed, to create sufficient working space - for example for video editing.

3. To download and install El Capitan - a process which I've already tested on another machine. Unfortunately I wasn't able to capture the the install files, so I'll have to download them again. If I can save the install files during the process that would possibly be useful, but it won't be essential.

4. To install new software which requires at least Yosemite - such as Adobe Photoshop Elements 14 and Premiere 14.

I would expect this process to take several hours - but it should be possible to do it within a day. On completion it should be possible to do quite a few operations which have so far been difficult or impossible, due to only having very congested systems.

Advice on backup software for El Capitan would be appreciated. Perhaps CCC won't work with that OS. To my mind, if that is the case, then that would only leave Super Duper and Time Machine as suitable tools.

[Beresford]

I've just spent half a day trying to retrieve files from my daughter's backup external disc (WD Elements). Several programs say the 1Gb disc is empty, but I know that it's not - just the index is corrupted. Made me think about Backup Philosophy - for a PC, but the philosophy is the same as Macs, just the software differs.
I think what I need is an external disc somewhat bigger than the main internal disc, containing a bootable copy of the main disc and all incremental changes to the main disc, updated when I choose, perhaps monthly or when there is something important. Able to extract individual files, so probably not an ISO. Anyway Windows 10 seems not to like ISO files.

Are there any pitfalls with this approach? I suppose the external disc could be The Cloud, or My Cloud. And is there any software that does this?

[Cockney Sparrow]

In answer to Beresford )#9) and as a fellow PC user.....

I pay for Acronis True Image, every couple of years I pay for licenses for the family PCs for updated software. I've not gone for Windows 10 but I would assume Acronis would be compatible with the latest Windows Op System, they usually are. TBH I only use it in a very basic way. I buy large capacity (3 or 4TB, latest is 5TB) external Hard Drives and take complete image backups on a rolling schedule, with one of hard disks located not in my home. Then the HDD with the oldest images are reformatted and re-used. I don't leave these HDs on - only powered for the backup.

If the Hard Disk in the PC has a terminal event, then I should be able to re-install the entire PC image on a replacement internal Hard Disk in the PC and I will have a working PC again. I only had to re-install an image once, years ago. As I should have about 3 images to choose from, at least one should be re-installable if there is a problem with one of the backup images or its Hard Disk. When I understood more about the program, before the updated versions, it was certainly possible to interrogate the images to recover particular folders or files as well - using a Bootable Recovery Disk (a very basic operating system working from a DVD (or they say even from a USB stick) which replaces the unavailable Windows for the purpose of finding and copying files etc). I presume this facility is still part of Acronis and that would fit your bill.

Also Acronis has a cloud storage system, which is payable for on subscription - but so do Dropbox and GoogleMail, and a number of other cloud storage providers so its a matter of which is best for you. For myself, I don't want my data handed over to a Cloud storage provider so I haven't pursued that.

Acronis seems to be a program with many options to take incremental backups on schedules and no doubt other options too. For me its a trade off of time in learning how to manage and do that and the cost of using 3 or 4 high capacity Hard Drives. As I feel its safer to have about 4 complete backup images, I pay that cost and just take full images. If I have the disaster of a failed system, then I would replace the Hard Drive, and trust in the simplicity of re-installing the image, and if necessary call upon Acronis for help if I needed it.

(I adopted this approach after a Hard Disk failed about 17 years ago. My helpful local PC shop told me about a data recovery company which then charged £20 per GB to recover date. I thought that worth considering (momentarily) as in those days only about 4GB of data was on it. But they went on to explain it was a 25GB disk, the charge would be on the capacity - so £300. So we put up with the loss of data, our photos were all developed then, and put it down to experience.

[Anastasius]

....

Advice on backup software for El Capitan would be appreciated. Perhaps CCC won't work with that OS. To my mind, if that is the case, then that would only leave Super Duper and Time Machine as suitable tools.

I also have been looking at CCC. If you look at their website it has some excellent information. Apple changed the file format with Yosemite and onwards and this is NOT compatible with Mavericks, for example. So you will need a different version of CCC...it's all there on their website.

Subsequent to my OP, I now realise that the file formats used in transferring data is different over ethernet and so my original plan simply will not work. A little research came across an article that discussed backup software for the Mac and after making enquiries of a few of the vendors, I have a few possible approaches:

1) A local Cloud device is wrong. I could use it for storing specific files or folders but then the whole recovery strategy becomes messy...where do I store my applications? How do I manage the licence codes etc. I want a backup that is 'fire-and-forget'.

2) Backing up to the Cloud is also not suitable as we've discussed before.

3) Making a backup to a suite of external hard drives and physically rotate them through the remote physical location. Doable but messy and relies on an organised regime - perhaps not my strongpoint.

4) A file-server is a possibility and there are many posts on the web on converting an elderly Mac into a file-server (I have a fairly meaty G4 available). My only problem would be space and also the environment is too dusty for the longterm reliability. I could make an enclosure easily enough that filtered the cooling air but my TUIT list gets longer everyday. It would still not address my ideal of being able to pickup the backup from its physical remote location and the boot up from it.

5) A NAS would also work and can be bought off-the-shelf albeit at a high price point and as I don't use iTunes or indeed have any other sort of music library (preferring to stream as and when) I don't need the added functionality that a NAS would give.

6) CCC lets you backup to a remote Mac. Even better, you can plug in an external hard drive to that Mac and backup to that. So this is my current preferred solution. I could buy a 2011 MacBook Pro to replace the very elderly 2009 model that I have and plug a spare hard drive into that. Since my backups are done overnight, that still lets me use the MacBook Pro for other things in my workshop such as streaming music and checking out stuff on the web.

I have tried El C and didn't like the new screen format, mail format etc. I have a distinct aversion to this 'new' approach of having huge amounts of wasted white space on the screen and font sizes and spacing that would not look out of place in a kindergarden. So different file formats are not an issue for me.

EDIT: just popped out to the workshop to check interfaces on my elderly MacBook and delighted to find it supports Firewire 400. So, as I have a spare hard drive, I'm going to give CCC Remote Mac backup a whirl. Will report back.

Re USB 1 - yes, early iMacs like mine are only USB 1

[Anastasius]

I've just spent half a day trying to retrieve files from my daughter's backup external disc (WD Elements). Several programs say the 1Gb disc is empty, but I know that it's not - just the index is corrupted. Made me think about Backup Philosophy - for a PC, but the philosophy is the same as Macs, just the software differs.
I think what I need is an external disc somewhat bigger than the main internal disc, containing a bootable copy of the main disc and all incremental changes to the main disc, updated when I choose, perhaps monthly or when there is something important. Able to extract individual files, so probably not an ISO. Anyway Windows 10 seems not to like ISO files.

Are there any pitfalls with this approach? I suppose the external disc could be The Cloud, or My Cloud. And is there any software that does this?

I'm afraid I can't offer any advice as I am exclusively Mac. Time Machine on Mac would do what you are after !

I think the search term you need is 'version backup' as distinct to 'incremental backup'. A lot of the better backup software vendors have very detailed websites with various backup strategies explained.

[Dave2002]

Also Acronis has a cloud storage system, which is payable for on subscription - but so do Dropbox and GoogleMail, and a number of other cloud storage providers so its a matter of which is best for you. For myself, I don't want my data handed over to a Cloud storage provider so I haven't pursued that.

This is my view too, though some of "my" data does exist in various "clouds". I am not particularly bothered about some iTunes or Amazon purchases being available online - which was not initially the case as some of those sites either provided one off downloads, or in the case of Amazon, provided real physical media. Unless anyone is particularly interested in my choice of music tracks, I really am not too worried about that, and indeed having online/downloadable or streamable versions of music which I've paid for does occasionally proved helpful.

I have also put up some photos on photo sites, but the policy on some of these sites is, or has been, to downsize or downgrade the quality of the images.
I never did this with the intention of using the sites as a method of storing or archiving my own photos, but perhaps for the benefit of others.

I have hardly any video material put up on online sites, though I think there are two video clips of traffic in Shanghai, which I put up to show how chaotic it can be.

I have resisted attempts by Apple to "match" my own tracks. I don't know exactly what they do in all situations, but the last thing I want is for them to substitute a 256kbps aac encoded track for each of my losslessly encoded tracks, which I may have ripped from a CD or other higher quality source - hopefully at a time when it was explicitly legal to do so!

I can see that for some in the business world that "clouds" may have advantages, and there are many reports which suggest that using external storage is actually a safer bet than using in house storage systems. I have remained sceptical about this over at least a decade. When people and organisations are trustworthy and reliable, then clouds are OK, but there can be failures. There have been businesses which have suffered because of mistakes in handing over data or certain aspects of any business to third parties. While there may be legal redress or remedy to "protect" the business, I have heard of cases where the anticipated cost of recovering damages or effecting a remedy is comparable to the value of the business. Thus effectively there is no protection, in the worst cases, and it is (sadly) simpler and easier just to accept a loss, and save time and effort by not following up on such cases.

It is, therefore, better not to get into that situation in the first place, and never rely on outsourcing for any data archiving or similar computer related activity. However, if there's a case for it, then using third party services in a belt and braces operation in which one's own data is managed and kept by oneself, but there may be some data "trusted" to a third party service, may be worthwhile, but the risks have to be carefully assessed.

Apparently cloud type services may be more interesting and helpful for start up companies, as capital expenditure on infrastructure, equipment, software, and hardware and software management and maintenance may be minimised, though some expenditure is needed in order to make provision for the equipment and links in order to access the outsourced online services. Some newer startup companies (and a few older well established ones) do operate largely online, and have collaborating or cooperating partners which also operate largely online, and such businesses could exploit cloud services more than more conventional ones and the commercial advantages of such a style of operation may outweigh any potential disadvantages.

[Dave2002]

Re USB 1 - yes, early iMacs like mine are only USB 1

Pre 2006? I can't find any reference to models early enough to only have USB1. I did check back as far as 2006. What model do you actually have?

I had a look for Firewire compatible drives following the comments here, and indeed there is a Freecom model which has Firewire 400 and 800, USB 3 and also eSata - http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B004Z610M...29583c782be5d7

There are different sizes - and it looked to me as though the 3 Tbyte model might give the best value - trying to evaluate cost per Gbyte versus the cost of having a device with multiple I/O possibilties.

I think there are also some La Cie models. See http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=a9_sc_...qid=1453370475

I need to check my own machines to see whether it's worth investing in any Firewire storage. So far I've never had the need to do so, but if I wanted to have a quick boot on some of the older USB 2 machines that might be worthwhile. Would Firewire 800 (say) be significantly faster than a USB 2 drive? That might make the Freecom Firewire+ drives attractive to me. I could presumably copy different boot images to partitions on such a drive, though I'm not quite sure how to choose between different bootable images on one drive for startup purposes.

For me I could be interested in Thunderbolt, but I think Thunderbolt drives are still very expensive. At the present time I think that USB 3 drives are the most cost effective, and it's typically possible to get a USB 3 1 Tbyte drive (Samsung or Seagate) for around £40-£45 - which is big enough to back up many modest systems on a single drive - e.g most laptops will have less storage, so £40 is not an unreasonable outlay per machine.

Although larger drives could backup more than one machine, the risk of failure could also go up, so trying to optimise cost per Gbyte by buying larger drives might not be a good idea.

[Lordgeous]

CCC is fine - I've always used, and am happy with, Super Duper for incremetal, regular backups but I also use Synck (Decimus software) for important stuff (music projects) which backs up unobtrusively in the background, like a much better Time machine. If a drive ever gets corrupted and unreadable, the amazing Disk Warrior has always done the trick for me!