Help with Windows!

[french frank]

I've had to start using my old Windows laptop and now have things I need to back up. I have a spare hard drive, but what's the equivalent of SuperDuper!?

Back in the Ice Age I used Norton Ghost with my PC until my anti-virus software took a dislike to it and made the machine keep crashing. I changed to Macs at that point and have never bothered with backing up the largely redundant laptop - bar installing Kaspersky to keep it usable.

So, what do I use? And will there be a problem reformatting the hard drive which I had been using for the iMac?

[David-G]

I don't know if you will have to reformat the drive. I am sure others will know about that.

To do the backup, can't you just copy the files using Windows Explorer?

[Dave2002]

If your drive is FAT formatted, probably FAT32, it won't need reformatting for Windows, but won't take huge files.

If your drive is Mac OS Extended then it may need reformatting to use with Windows. Your options are FAT32 or NTFS.

NTFS files can be read on Mac OS with a utility. Writing NTFS files on Mac OS X is slightly more problematic. Some drives come with a utility, or link to a download site for making this possible.

There is this which explains some of the issues - http://www.macyourself.com/2012/03/1...compatibility/

I am unsure about utilities which allow Mac files to be read/written on PCs. There used to be a tool called MacDrive which did this - but that was in the dark ages - floppy disc era!. I think there's still an updated version - see http://www.mediafour.com/software/macdrive/ The advertising blurb suggests that it should work with HFS+ formatted discs. You could test out the trial version. Probably not worth paying for unless you are going to do this a lot.

If your laptop is old and relatively little used then the chances are that there's not so much data on it, so you could just use a USB stick - say 32Gbytes to do the job - cost under £10 - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kingston-Tec...b+memory+stick - I think or about £14 for a 64 Gbyte one - http://www.amazon.co.uk/SanDisk-Cruz...b+memory+stick

If you use FAT32 formatting, then you should be able to transfer most of the files, unless they are huge, and copy them to space on your Mac drives through the USB ports on your Mac.

Sorry - I'm not up to date with PC/Windows backup utilities.

PS: Just make sure you don't import a virus or other malware if you take files across to the Mac. Most people say they won't affect Macs, which is largely true, but it's a bit anti-social to have them on your machine, as they can then be passed on to other PC users.

Do a malware scan on both the source (PC) and destination machines (Mac?) if you try that.

[french frank]

Thanks, folks. I have one program - Serif's PagePlus, which is Windows only - which I have to back up to make sure the files are preserved in the event of a premature decease of the laptop. I wouldn't be able to use the .ppp files on the Mac anyway. I save the PagePlus files as pdfs (as well as ppps), so no problem in using a flash drive for individual files, but it's the program I don't want to lose.

I wasn't sure whether the HD needed to be reformatted as it was used for the Mac, but I will want to delete all the Mac files first. The Mac has a Time Machine back-up, and there's a separate SuperDuper! back-up too.

Uh, Windows Explorer … um, I'd better explore …

[robk]

I use Microsoft SyncToy to back up from my PC. It is a free download which I have found reliable. It copies files in the same way as Windows Explorer but tracks changes so you know what needs updating. I backup to an external hard drive and a USB memory stick. You can choose to synchronise only in one direction (echo) which ensures that the files on the PC are safe from corruption.

[Dave2002]

I have one program - Serif's PagePlus, which is Windows only - which I have to back up to make sure the files are preserved in the event of a premature decease of the laptop. I wouldn't be able to use the .ppp files on the Mac anyway. I save the PagePlus files as pdfs (as well as ppps), so no problem in using a flash drive for individual files, but it's the program I don't want to lose.

I used to use that program quite a lot. Do you have a recent verion. I also have a few of the other Serif programs.

Is it worth keeping it, or are there other alternative programs for the Mac which could do the same job as well? It's that's kind of issue which prompted another thread recently on whether or not to buy a cheapish PC laptop.

If you only use the laptop and the Serif program occasionally, then is it worth just keeping them going until they die, or would it be better to try to get a newer and faster solution? I have had a similar issue very recently regarding a Sony program - Sonicstage. Hardly anyone uses that these days, but if one has recordings made on minidiscs then it's a reasonable way of recovering them from the minidiscs. I mistakenly thought that Sony had finally produced a Mac version, but they never did. They were really rather shoddy about the way they developed and sold the discs and the machines to record/play them.

Back to Serif, in my experience if one is a customer it's very hard to get away from them trying to sell you stuff, and you can often pick up their programs very cheaply by waiting until they more or less give them away for around £10 - perhaps around this time of year. I doubt that keeping the program available is going to be a problem, unless there are known compatibility issues between versions. As you are keeping both a PDF and a .ppp form you are fairly safe for the moment regarding data security.

[french frank]

I used to use that program quite a lot. Do you have a recent verion.

Yes, the latest X8. I've only just started using PagePlus.

Is it worth keeping it, or are there other alternative programs for the Mac which could do the same job as well?

I'm sure there are but I have to use PagePlus because it's 'ordained' by the people I'm doing the work for. I think their printing machine is somewhat limited. It's the only reason I'm using PP and why I've dug the laptop out. :-(

Back to Serif, in my experience if one is a customer it's very hard to get away from them trying to sell you stuff, and you can often pick up their programs very cheaply by waiting until they more or less give them away for around £10 - perhaps around this time of year.

Yes, I paid £40 - not a gigantic sum - without realising I would have qualified for a special deal at £20.

I just thought that backing up the laptop was sensible, but didn't know how to

[french frank]

Ooh, takes me back to the old days …

No sign on the desktop of an icon for the external hard drive and can't find any trace of it - and the Safely Remove icon had disappeared from the system tray. However, I have now followed instructions and produced a new desktop shortcut for Safely Remove and have removed the external hard drive (yes, it did show in the list of devices). Having, well over an hour later, achieved absolument nothing. Except the shortcut instead of the system tray icon which was permanently displayed before but has now disappeared. Yes, I have right-clicked on the task bar > Notification Area > Customize > checked that Safely Remove Hardware is on 'Show' > OK. But it isn't showing. Restarted laptop. Still not showing - but at least the new shortcut hasn't disappeared.

Ah, nostalgia …

[Dave2002]

Did you try formatting the drive using your Mac before you plugged it into the Windows laptop? If not, then perhaps that was why it didn't appear. Use Disk Utility on the Mac to check the drive format and then very carefully to reformat it as (say) FAT32. [the possible danger is accidentally erasing your main Mac drive - avoid!!!] It may then apppear in Windows and if necessary could then be reformated as NTFS, though FAT32 would do if you don't need to copy huge files, and that would give some compatibility with your Macs.

Unless you have add in software on your Mac, NTFS formatting, if you want/need that, has to be done on the Windows system.

Also, when did you plug the drive into your laptop? In fairness, I find that even using my MacBook Pro, it often does't "see" USB drives if they are plugged in while the machine is switched off or asleep or the screen is asleep or the desktop isn't showing. I have to be able to see the active desktop when I push the connector in for drives to be recognised. This may depend on the drive model, but most of mine work like that at present.

[MrGongGong]

I used to have an external drive shared between a Mac and XP machine.
I formatted it as FAT32 and it worked fine apart from the file size limitation of 4GB (which is a fairly large amount of music)

[french frank]

Use Disk Utility on the Mac to check the drive format and then very carefully to reformat it as (say) FAT32. [the possible danger is accidentally erasing your main Mac drive - avoid!!!]

Oh, I durst not, I durst not

I first had it already plugged in when I booted up (perhaps that's what caused the Safely Remove icon to disappear) but then tried again with the laptop on - no difference. Though, à propos, I had the trouble you mention when I switched over to Snow Leopard: the Time Machine HD didn't mount: I had to switch it off and then on again - but with Mavericks it's ok).

May risk checking the format … These are deep waters, Holmes.

(Actually, I could try it on the MacBook - that wouldn't be a total tragedy if the HD was wiped). Thanks again, chaps.

[johnb]

There are many approaches to backing up a PC.

- copying over files so that the external HDD contains a mirror of part or the whole of the PC's HDD.
This is useful if it is restricted to folders containing data files, especially as the backed up files are then easily accessible. It is of little use as a full backup of the PCs HDD as it would be impossible to restore the PC's HDD (including operating system and programs) using this method.

robk mentioned Microsoft's Synctoy as a method of maintaining a mirror image (of folders and or the whole HDD) but I found Synctoy unreliable so I switched to Beyond Compare to maintain mirrors of my music library and data files.

- fully fledged disk imaging programs such as Acronis True Image Home, etc. These create an "image" file on the external HDD from which the PC's HD can be fully restored. BUT you would have to use a NTFS formatted HDD as the size of the image file will be much, much larger than the 4GB limit of FAT32. The drawback of these programs is that the individual files within the image are only accessible through the disk imaging software. The advantage of disk imaging programs is that the backup image can be used to fully restore the PC's HD.

Many of these disc imaging programs come with lots of bells and whistles which users are encouraged to use but which can cause problems. IMO it is better to use these programs to create straightforward backups and ignore other options.

[Dave2002]

Oh, I durst not, I durst not

I first had it already plugged in when I booted up (perhaps that's what caused the Safely Remove icon to disappear) but then tried again with the laptop on - no difference. Though, à propos, I had the trouble you mention when I switched over to Snow Leopard: the Time Machine HD didn't mount: I had to switch it off and then on again - but with Mavericks it's ok).

May risk checking the format … These are deep waters, Holmes.

(Actually, I could try it on the MacBook - that wouldn't be a total tragedy if the HD was wiped). Thanks again, chaps.

I have had this "missing" external USB drive a few times. I think I got if fixed on all my machines, though I'm not usind the latest systems. Which systems are you using? You mention Mavericks.

There are a couple of suggestions before getting really esoteric - which might in the end fix your problem.

First, check that external drives are set as visible - do that in Finder Preferences. I think that's probably still the same in the system you're using. I just jumped over what I think is your version to check in Yosemite, and indeed there is still an option with check boxes to turn visibility on within Finder Preferences.

Then try plugging the drive in.

If the drive turns up on the Desktop you can then do other things - if you want to. You might find it helpful to use CMD+I on the icon, which should show what format the drive is in. If it's not in the format you want (probably FAT32), they you'll have to get brave and use Disk Utility. We can do that later.

I think if that fails, that you should open up Finder, and see if the drive appears within that - usually down the left hand side. It'd be useful to know if you can see the drive in Finder, but not on the Desktop.

Otherwise, open Disk Utility. I'm not suggesting doing anything - since you seem nervous about it at this stage, but just see if the drive appears in that.
Then get back to us with details. If the drive does not appear, then more head scratching will be needed. If it does appear in Disk Utility, you should be able to read off what type of disk format it is. If it's already FAT32, then you don't need to do any more, unless you really do want to concert to NTFS, as per johnb's post. You won't be able to convert to NTFS anyway, unless you have some additional code installed, so that would have to be done on the target Windows machine. If the drive is Apple Extended (Journaled), then you'll need to do more work later.

I should have written down the fix which worked for me - as now it doesn't seem quite so easy to find. Basically, as I understand it, in one of the updated versions of Mac OS X - maybe the transition from Snow Leopard to Lion, Apple changed some code to not use some of the X11 windows system, which was being used in an earlier version, since a lot of the Apple OS is based on Unix and Linux code. I think essentially they were using a variant of X11, but something didn't quite work out well when they did the OS update. The solution I found, which others had also found, was to find a site which had some of the code ready packaged up, and install that over the Apple code - and to my delight and surprise it all worked fine. Quite why Apple can't get around to fixing this problem, which does seem to pop up from time to time, and is fairly well known, I can't imagine! Bit sloppy, really.

Oh, I durst not, I durst not

We'll get you using Disk Utility in earnest later on - but not after drinking Dutch courage!

You can find more in the links below, but they may be too detailed and technical.

Some tips for earlier systems - https://discussions.apple.com/thread...art=0&tstart=0

Technical - and perhaps too complicated - http://apple.stackexchange.com/quest...nize-usb-drive
you need to know how to use Terminal (in Utilities) and some Unix/Linux like commands.

[french frank]

Desktop icon is now visible on a different Mac - Yosemite - atm, and format is Mac OS X Extended (Journaled). I imagine I never formated it - just connected to another Mac (Mavericks) and it did the rest. I've been backing up the Mavericks machine on it for a couple of years. In Disk Utility I've verified the volume and it 'appears to be OK'.

I think the instructions for formating it to FAT32 are here (it is a 320Gb WD HD). But I'm not sure that it's plain sailing …

[Dave2002]

Desktop icon is now visible on a different Mac - Yosemite - atm, and format is Mac OS X Extended (Journaled). I imagine I never formated it - just connected to another Mac (Mavericks) and it did the rest. I've been backing up the Mavericks machine on it for a couple of years. In Disk Utility I've verified the volume and it 'appears to be OK'.

I think the instructions for formating it to FAT32 are here (it is a 320Gb WD HD). But I'm not sure that it's plain sailing …

Oh - you're almost there - assuming you decide for FAT32, and in any case that's going to be the easiest way to get it across to the PC anyway. Just connect it to one of your Macs wich recognises it, then go into Disk Utility, and select it - it should be in the panel on the left.

Make sure your mouse pointer keeps well away from your main drive which is almost certainly called Macintosh HD.

Select the drive to format - the External one. Then Erase!

You should be given an option to select the format at that point, though I've not done it for a few weeks, so can'f confirm. As you are now (hopefully) not worried about the drive anymore - backed off anything you wanted - then it should be obvious from now on in. Remember to select FAT32 so as to get Windows compatibility.

If unsure, I think the instructions I've just given are pretty much the same as the ones in that file you linked to - that might have screen shots. Not quite - I've just looked at your linked file - the instructions there are perhaps better, so go with them. You should eventually get to the FAT32 instructions - if you go to the MacOS instructions by following the link at "Click Here for instructions in the right hand column of the table, and then follow the link you'll find that you simply get taken to lower down in the same file, and the screen shots for FAT32 are there Just follow it from there.

Once you're done that you could just transfer one file to the drive to make sure it still works, then unload the drive, and connect to the PC laptop. You should see the test file in there - which you can delete if you wish - and then you're almost ready to go with the next part of your backup strategy, whichever one you are choosing.

Good luck!


PS - I don't think you are going to want to boot up from the external drive, but if you do then it may make a difference whether you use GUID partition table (more Apple compatible?), or the MBR (greater Windows compatibility?) form as suggested in that WD article. I suspect that following the WD instructions would be good enough. At this point what happens next may depend on the backup strategy and software that you'll be adopting and using on the Windows PC.