Music and clouds

[Dave2002]

I have been very suspicious of cloud storage and also how it gets used for storing music for a long while, though some issues are specific to music files.

I still am.

Looks like 95% of the online world doesn't care or agree - prefering convenience [up to a point] over quality, and convenience over privacy and security.


I found this about Apple Music - https://techpenny.com/apple-music-ic...ions-answered/ which may be partly informative.

I keep most of my music files in local storage, but for convenience it might sometimes be useful to have them played by the Music app/program in Macos.

I really don't want them uploaded to any cloud - certainly not without my knowledge and/or permission.

[richardfinegold]

I am not sure what you are objecting to specifically. Any streaming service has files on a server and if a subscriber wants to access them on more than 1 device there has to be some setting in the OS to allow this.

[Dave2002]

I am not sure what you are objecting to specifically. Any streaming service has files on a server and if a subscriber wants to access them on more than 1 device there has to be some setting in the OS to allow this.

I have had issues with clouds and music for many years.

I understand that "if a subscriber wants to access them on more than 1 device there has to be some setting in the OS" - but since I hardly ever want to do that it's very surprising that sometimes there are "leaks" from my system on to other devices.
Users who aren't worried won't be very bothered, or likely even notice.

I just triggered another issue a few minutes ago, as I tried to find where the source file for something in my system is located, but I got taken to a page in the Apple Music store, suggesting that I buy the remaining tracks. No way I'm going to pay any more - I know that I've either downloaded it already in some format, or ripped it from a CD.

I am trying to rationalise my computer storage - and if it helps I'll move all of the music tracks [in whatever format] off to an external storage device - but I do need to know where and what the files are.

There are quite a number of other issues, but I won't spell them all out unless others want to join in.

[richardfinegold]

Apple Music Store? I thought that died with iTunes

[richardfinegold]

I have had issues with clouds and music for many years.

I understand that "if a subscriber wants to access them on more than 1 device there has to be some setting in the OS" - but since I hardly ever want to do that it's very surprising that sometimes there are "leaks" from my system on to other devices.
Users who aren't worried won't be very bothered, or likely even notice.

I just triggered another issue a few minutes ago, as I tried to find where the source file for something in my system is located, but I got taken to a page in the Apple Music store, suggesting that I buy the remaining tracks. No way I'm going to pay any more - I know that I've either downloaded it already in some format, or ripped it from a CD.

I am trying to rationalise my computer storage - and if it helps I'll move all of the music tracks [in whatever format] off to an external storage device - but I do need to know where and what the files are.

There are quite a number of other issues, but I won't spell them all out unless others want to join in.

I also don’t understand the statement “I do need to know where and what the files are”. My guess is that you downloaded files in the past from a file sharer and that they came in as a jpeg or something similar and you didn’t rename them, and you are wondering about the contents (?). Before I go further can you clarify this?
I stream Apple primarily to explore recordings. For non Classical I use it exclusively, for Classical if I like the recording I buy a physical copy. I have put a few albums in the folder for “off line listening “ which essentially means that files exist on the HD of my phone, but if I discontinue the streaming service they somehow disappear. I use offline listening for airplane travel or if my vacation spot has poor internet access. I believe Qobuz and other streaming services offer similar services.

[Dave2002]

I have so many sources of music that it's difficult to keep track. I even find pieces of music I have written or pieces I have arranged for orchestra which find their way into Apple Music. I was surprised earlier this morning to find an arrangement of a Debussy piano piece which I created last year as one of the "tracks".

So - music/pieces which may end up in Apple Music:

1. Legitimate downloads from other sources. For example the weekly freebies from Classic Select World. Those aren't always of ultra high quality, but they may be serviceable, or of interesting recordings. One I listened to earlier was the last movement of Shostakovich 5th symphony - Leningrad PO/Mravinsky. Pretty dreadful recording but the performance is definitely interesting, though not as I remembered it. I was surprised at how fast the opening was, but it slowed down later. I remember it being slow, but I didn't realise it started off fast. OK - that's a digression, but the point is it's something which I have legitimately. I also have downloads from the same source which I've paid for.

Because of the quality limitations and because I usually keep at least one extra copy on external storage, I'd be happy to delete those from the main drive/SSD on my machine. To do that I need to know where they are located.

Apple doesn't help too much here either, as keeping track of storage one discovers "Purgeable" store - which I think means that Apple has [or thinks it has] a copy of the "identical" piece in the Apple Music Cloud, so rather than actually deleting the data from storage memory, it leaves it there - with a flag that it could be deleted if needed. That's all very well, but sometimes users really need to know whether there is available storage - or memory - depending on the program or application being run.

2. Audio files which have been recorded using a microphone or other input device. Some of these could be personal, important to me [or for others, the user themselves] - and no reason why they should be exported off my machines.

3. High quality audio files - perhaps produced by ripping CDs, DVDs, SACDs etc. and legitimately paid for. Apple Music may try to match those with its own database, but possibly substitute what it thinks is the same from its own servers. For users with high quality audio that's not good. It may help some users with low quality files, as someone could have a low quality mp3 which matched Apple's database, and they might then benefit from a significantly better copy courtesy of Apple's servers.

4. As mentioned above - pieces of my own creation, which currently exist as audio files.

Right now I would really like to be able to use some form of player for all the various files I have - and Apple Music could do the job if it weren't so problematic in the ways outlined here.

I don't know now what other possible players would work with my data files - perhaps Foobar still works.

Requirements - stand alone player which plays downloads or music files at the highest possible quality, with no interaction with external servers. Until fairly recently I just used to use the direct player in Macos - select an audio file, then a pop up window appears within Finder from which the music can be played. However that doesn't help if I want - as I often do - to use the computer for other purposes, because as soon as I use the finder for anything else, the music stops. Also that approach does not give continuous playback of music - such as a symphony - even if the files for each movement are listed consecutively.

[richardfinegold]

How did these files that were not purchased through iTunes end up in an Apple ecosystem? Where did you initially save them to? And I assume that you use Macs and not Microsoft computers?

[Dave2002]

How did these files that were not purchased through iTunes end up in an Apple ecosystem? Where did you initially save them to? And I assume that you use Macs and not Microsoft computers?

I don't know how the particular problems happened - it was years ago, but I was pretty sure of the issue at the time.

iTunes on Macos has been superseded by Music - which is very similat to what iTunes was before. Apple split iTunes up into separate "apps" a year or more ago.

It is easy to get a piece into Music - just create an mp3 file using a tool, such as notation editor - or an audio editor - so you "know" it's definitely not anything which anyone else will have access to.
Then select it in the Finder, and Macos will look for a program to play it - and like as not it will end up in the Music app.

If one or other Cloud setting permits, that file will then migrate to other devices in the same eco system.

As I've indicated, I try to not let that ever happen.

It may be that you were not thinking about the renaming of Apple's music jack of all trades - Swiss army knife - program running on Macos, but rather the Apple Music service - though even then it is possible that the kind of behaviour I mentioned may happen.

[richardfinegold]

I don't know how the particular problems happened - it was years ago, but I was pretty sure of the issue at the time.

iTunes on Macos has been superseded by Music - which is very similat to what iTunes was before. Apple split iTunes up into separate "apps" a year or more ago.

It is easy to get a piece into Music - just create an mp3 file using a tool, such as notation editor - or an audio editor - so you "know" it's definitely not anything which anyone else will have access to.
Then select it in the Finder, and Macos will look for a program to play it - and like as not it will end up in the Music app.

If one or other Cloud setting permits, that file will then migrate to other devices in the same eco system.

As I've indicated, I try to not let that ever happen.

It may be that you were not thinking about the renaming of Apple's music jack of all trades - Swiss army knife - program running on Macos, but rather the Apple Music service - though even then it is possible that the kind of behaviour I mentioned may happen.

Yes I guess we have been talking about 2 different things.
Have you tried Roon? I don’t use it but it is supposed to help organize music files that are scattered about a network. I don’t know if it could do anything with the self made recordings. It’s expensive but I think you can do a free trial to gauge if it is helpful

[Dave2002]

Yes I guess we have been talking about 2 different things.
Have you tried Roon? I don’t use it but it is supposed to help organize music files that are scattered about a network. I don’t know if it could do anything with the self made recordings. It’s expensive but I think you can do a free trial to gauge if it is helpful

OK - I'm glad we've hopefully stopped talking at cross purposes.

I have heard good things about Roon, though that was a few years ago. I have been bitten by a few of these devices and systems in the past. I liked the Logitech system before it was canned, though I still have a few Logitech devices and at least one computer which still has server software - which might still work.

[richardfinegold]

OK - I'm glad we've hopefully stopped talking at cross purposes.

I have heard good things about Roon, though that was a few years ago. I have been bitten by a few of these devices and systems in the past. I liked the Logitech system before it was canned, though I still have a few Logitech devices and at least one computer which still has server software - which might still work.

My Roon trial was several years ago and it wasn’t a happy experience. I was using an old Computer-a MacAir from 2009- to host it and it downloaded after several hours and then I played with it for an hour or so. The next day when I opened the Air it was gone and required another download. 10 minutes in the computer began to make every warning signal it was capable of and was seriously overheating. I stopped it and never attempted it again.
My audio dealer uses Roon in his store to demonstrate equipment, with a Bluesound Node as the core playing Qobuz. At the time I first saw this I was using Qobuz and it was interesting to see how Roon organized the files compared to the native Qobuz interface.
I’ve read in several places that Roon causes a slight sonic degradation.

[Dave2002]

My Roon trial was several years ago and it wasn’t a happy experience. I was using an old Computer-a MacAir from 2009- to host it and it downloaded after several hours and then I played with it for an hour or so. The next day when I opened the Air it was gone and required another download. 10 minutes in the computer began to make every warning signal it was capable of and was seriously overheating. I stopped it and never attempted it again.
My audio dealer uses Roon in his store to demonstrate equipment, with a Bluesound Node as the core playing Qobuz. At the time I first saw this I was using Qobuz and it was interesting to see how Roon organized the files compared to the native Qobuz interface.
I’ve read in several places that Roon causes a slight sonic degradation.

I have been wondering about getting yet another streamer - but really I'm not sure it's worth the bother. I found mention of this at Amazon - WiiM Pro Plus AirPlay 2 Receiver, Google Cast Audio, Multiroom Streamer with Premium AKM DAC - and it has had quite good reviews and isn't too expensive. However I don't really want to have to subscribe to yet another more expensive streaming service - though if that WiiM device could link to the files I've already got ready to go it could be OK.

I really did like streaming from my own files before that systems went belly up, and the subscriptions for online services seem to have risen significantly in the last few years.

[richardfinegold]

I have been wondering about getting yet another streamer - but really I'm not sure it's worth the bother. I found mention of this at Amazon - WiiM Pro Plus AirPlay 2 Receiver, Google Cast Audio, Multiroom Streamer with Premium AKM DAC - and it has had quite good reviews and isn't too expensive. However I don't really want to have to subscribe to yet another more expensive streaming service - though if that WiiM device could link to the files I've already got ready to go it could be OK.

I really did like streaming from my own files before that systems went belly up, and the subscriptions for online services seem to have risen significantly in the last few years.

I bought the Wiim Pro for my basement Home Theater, which lacked a streamer. It’s one of their least expensive models. It doesn’t have a DAC and won’t handle anything above 16 bit. It cost around $100 and for a few dollars more I could have had the model that handles higher resolution.
I will be having knee replacement surgery in a few weeks and for logistical reasons will be using the basement bedroom for recovery. I use this system primarily for video, SACD and BluRay; the Wiim allows me access to the hundreds of CDs ripped to my NAS along with Internet Radio, AirPlay, Chromecast, Bluetooth, and Podcasts. I don’t anticipate using it much once I have vacated the basement so I didn’t want to spend more. The DAC is in my Anthem receiver.
This is the best audio value I’ve encountered. It sounds much better than my expectations and the app is actually fun to play with.
I haven’t priced Qobuz recently but I don’t think it has risen all that much. Apple Music still costs what I paid starting two years ago.

[gradus]

I'm eavesdropping but to no purpose as conversations as technical as this are bewildering to primitives like me. Thank the Lord somebody understands all this stuff.