"Most BBC radio stations to become unavailable for international users"

[Forget It (U2079353)]

Er, you quoted from the blog, they are not my words....I don't agree with what it says, I merely posted it as of interest in the context of the ongoing conversation.

Yes you are correct Roger, I thought about that at the time
and that is why I wrote in my reply "you cite a blog that says: "

[Ein Heldenleben]

One might ask whether Classical musicians and their agents tend to miss merchandising opportunities.Musicians in other genres often find a way to make useful extra cash and help build the audience.
the big names in classical ( soloists and star conductors ) probably don’t need the money or extra effort, I guess. But chamber musicians , for example with a record deal may be missing a trick?

Trouble is the somewhat older audience at the LPO’s excellent RFH concerts are unlikely to buy Megadeth style “Rust In Peace “ TShirts at £20.00 a pop.

[teamsaint]

That’s interesting . Warners , like Disney , are very hot on copyright. Wonder if they’ve cut a deal or just don’t think it’s worth the effort for the revenue (compared to the Spotifys and Amazon musics) ? Thing is for the composers and performers it is worth the effort. It’s a miserable time to be a minorish to middling creative artist - especially if like classical musicians there are zero merchandising opportunities at concerts,

One might ask whether Classical musicians and their agents tend to miss merchandising opportunities.Musicians in other genres often find a way to make useful extra cash and help build the audience.
the big names in classical ( soloists and star conductors ) probably don’t need the money or extra effort, I guess. But chamber musicians , for example with a record deal may be missing a trick?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Well those letters have fallen on deaf ears (?) - not a single aggregator has 'ceased' or 'desisted' putting out content 'belonging' to Warners from every radio station on the globe.....except TuneIn - and that only in the UK! TuneIn is still available in every country it streams to, and those radio stations it streams to are pumping out Warners stuff dawn til dusk! I suspect there are other reasons that Warners (and I thought Sony was involved) have picked this particular fight. Try downloading any aggregator from the app. store, you'll find they carry every imaginable radio station in the world.....apart from BBC, of course!

That’s interesting . Warners , like Disney , are very hot on copyright. Wonder if they’ve cut a deal or just don’t think it’s worth the effort for the revenue (compared to the Spotifys and Amazon musics) ? Thing is for the composers and performers it is worth the effort. It’s a miserable time to be a minorish to middling creative artist - especially if like classical musicians there are zero merchandising opportunities at concerts,

[Roger Webb]

Suing Tunein was all they had to do. With that precedent their cease and desist letters gather much more force. Suing really is the final option.

Well those letters have fallen on deaf ears (?) - not a single aggregator has 'ceased' or 'desisted' putting out content 'belonging' to Warners from every radio station on the globe.....except TuneIn - and that only in the UK! TuneIn is still available in every country it streams to, and those radio stations it streams to are pumping out Warners stuff dawn til dusk! I suspect there are other reasons that Warners (and I thought Sony was involved) have picked this particular fight. Try downloading any aggregator from the app. store, you'll find they carry every imaginable radio station in the world.....apart from BBC, of course!

[Roger Webb]

That seems very plausible - shame it’s an uncredited piece.

These blogs are put out by industry insider Jon Jacobs who has done work as a copywriter and social media manager for Wigmore Hall, English Concert, Warner Classics, Ulster Orch. etc.

I stuck it up there, not because I agree with its precepts, but because it's an interesting point of view.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Yes, all of that I agree with.

But the BBC and interested parties, performing rights-wise have to realise with digital communication - the possibilities of which are ever increasing - that it's not going to be possible to police them as they would wish to do. Actually, it has always been thus....but to a lesser degree - for example I had friends who lived in Normandy in the 80s who were classical music fans and listened to BBC Radio 3 on FM with a massive 6 element Yagi array mounted on their roof - they didn't pay a license fee. It has merely become easier to listen to stations from all parts of the globe with the advent of internet radio... 'resistance is useless'!

I followed the TuneIn case and I, like a lot of people were amazed that they didn't appeal against the ruling...it seems quite surprising that Warners et al didn't see fit to sue other aggregators similarly, and that, whilst the lawyers did ok, Warners et al (and those musicians they represent) were not one penny better off for forcing listeners to move the dial, so to speak, to another aggregator, but it did annoy us who had to junk our streamers! How many 'smart speakers' went to the tip in the BBCs attempt to force Sounds app. use on listeners by their 'Shoutcast' decision?!

I love(d) BBC Radio 3 (when in the early 70s I was sent to work in a Communication Centre in the Middle East I used to get an Oppo in London to send the Proms on one of the 'spare' network channels usually used for engineering chit-chat so I could listen on the night watch!), but I'm afraid I'm drifting away (from the BBC, that is!).....making a series of incoherent statements, retracted almost immediately after being discussed on a BBC news programme doesn't fill me with confidence in the management structure.

Suing Tunein was all they had to do. With that precedent their cease and desist letters gather much more force. Suing really is the final option.

[Roger Webb]

The Proms are already syndicated overseas. They get paid for.
The RAI Radio 3 in Italy often relays the Proms live - with their own interval talks.
I guess they are similarly heard and paid for in the US.

Er, you quoted from the blog, they are not my words....I don't agree with what it says, I merely posted it as of interest in the context of the ongoing conversation.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Just stumbled across this:-

https://blog.thoroughlygood.me/2025/...ternationally/

That seems very plausible - shame it’s an uncredited piece.

[Ein Heldenleben]

The Proms are already syndicated overseas. They get paid for.
The RAI Radio 3 in Italy often relays the Proms live - with their own interval talks.
I guess they are similarly heard and paid for in the US.

In the case of RAI there are probably free as part of the EBU deal.

[Forget It (U2079353)]

you cite an blog that says: BBC Proms has to be paid for by something for goodness sake

The Proms are already syndicated overseas. They get paid for.
The RAI Radio 3 in Italy often relays the Proms live - with their own interval talks.
I guess they are similarly heard and paid for in the US.

[Roger Webb]

Just stumbled across this:-

https://blog.thoroughlygood.me/2025/03/24/heres-why-it-makes-sense-that-bbc-proms-and-bbc-radio-3-is-not-available-internationally/

[Roger Webb]

You can’t listen to (most ) BBC output abroad unless you pay a licence fee and there’s no mechanism to do that unless things have changed. The problem is , I suspect , that the prohibitive of collection and enforecment
.
Unless I’m missing something if aggregators are relaying stations that they don’t own or pay a (very hefty ) licence to they are breaking the law by rebroadcasting them. They are also depriving musicians of the performance fees and residuals they are entitled to . The BBC can prevent relaying of its own services in the UK through legal channels. It’s more expensive and sometimes impossible to do that with foreign ones .

The main pressure groups historically in all this has been the PRS and the MU who are concerned about the impact on their members’ income . Though these days the streamers especially Spotify are vastly more significant in doing that. People probably don’t want to hear this but when you listen to a foreign station that you don’t pay a subscription for or , more likely, pay a licence fee for you are potentially depriving thousands of musicians and radio employees of income.Unless that station has bought global rights (unlikely as it’s extraordinarily expensive) more likely they just don’t care about such things. But to be honest how far do you take these things? It seems many solar panels made in China are made by slave labour - how many refuse to use them here?

Personally when I was BBC staff I never cared that much about illegal rebroadcast. The only time I ever got YouTube to take material down was when the ultimate rights owner (a freelance photographer) complained . Now I have to take it a bit more seriously as I’m freelance. Though I’m pretty relaxed about it as my residuals are tiny. They won’t be for opera singers , conductors , soloists , actors , directors - they will literally be thousands if not tens of thousands a year. In the case of a MacCartney millions,

Meanwhile on a musical and rights note I hear one of the most popular football chants these days is “We’ve got our Fire sticks .” All sung to the tune of La Donna è Mobile. Followed by “Sky TV Is F***ing S***.

The Fire sticks are illegally tampered with to receive Sky sports via NOW.

re Tunein - this case was an interesting precedent

https://www.scl.org/10731-tunein-rad...ds-high-court/

Yes, all of that I agree with.

But the BBC and interested parties, performing rights-wise have to realise with digital communication - the possibilities of which are ever increasing - that it's not going to be possible to police them as they would wish to do. Actually, it has always been thus....but to a lesser degree - for example I had friends who lived in Normandy in the 80s who were classical music fans and listened to BBC Radio 3 on FM with a massive 6 element Yagi array mounted on their roof - they didn't pay a license fee. It has merely become easier to listen to stations from all parts of the globe with the advent of internet radio... 'resistance is useless'!

I followed the TuneIn case and I, like a lot of people were amazed that they didn't appeal against the ruling...it seems quite surprising that Warners et al didn't see fit to sue other aggregators similarly, and that, whilst the lawyers did ok, Warners et al (and those musicians they represent) were not one penny better off for forcing listeners to move the dial, so to speak, to another aggregator, but it did annoy us who had to junk our streamers! How many 'smart speakers' went to the tip in the BBCs attempt to force Sounds app. use on listeners by their 'Shoutcast' decision?!

I love(d) BBC Radio 3 (when in the early 70s I was sent to work in a Communication Centre in the Middle East I used to get an Oppo in London to send the Proms on one of the 'spare' network channels usually used for engineering chit-chat so I could listen on the night watch!), but I'm afraid I'm drifting away (from the BBC, that is!).....making a series of incoherent statements, retracted almost immediately after being discussed on a BBC news programme doesn't fill me with confidence in the management structure.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Yes thanks Dermot, I hadn't noticed the development.

As it stands then, we in the UK cannot listen to the BBC music programmes via an aggregator (except it seems a reduced bitrate via VRadio), we have to use Sounds. Those listening outside the UK will not be able to listen via Sounds app. but may be able to listen via one of the aggregators (TuneIn?).

It seems Ein Heldenleben was mistaken in giving his reason for the BBC discontinuing music broadcast, as a 'rights' issue...unless they've just discovered a pot of money somewhere!

The BBC's policy on digital broadcasting has always been a mess....would it not be a good idea to get someone in who really understands how listeners listen! Many of us bought streamers in the belief that we could use them to stream BBC stations here, in the country where we pay a licence fee! I have already junked one streamer (Marantz) because it uses TuneIn....TuneIn is useless in this country as it doesn't carry foreign stations....or BBC ones! My present streamer (Quad, with Playfi app.) is brilliant for foreign stations (with 'native' VTuner app.), but doesn't have BBC stations!

I believe the real reason we in the UK are 'encouraged' to use the Sounds app. is for 'head-counting' reasons....keep the bean counters happy and the management's happy - as long as those numbers appear to go up.

Meanwhile I'm enjoying my exploration of foreign classical music stations....YLE on at the moment!

You can’t listen to (most ) BBC output abroad unless you pay a licence fee and there’s no mechanism to do that unless things have changed. The problem is , I suspect , that the prohibitive of collection and enforecment
.
Unless I’m missing something if aggregators are relaying stations that they don’t own or pay a (very hefty ) licence to they are breaking the law by rebroadcasting them. They are also depriving musicians of the performance fees and residuals they are entitled to . The BBC can prevent relaying of its own services in the UK through legal channels. It’s more expensive and sometimes impossible to do that with foreign ones .

The main pressure groups historically in all this has been the PRS and the MU who are concerned about the impact on their members’ income . Though these days the streamers especially Spotify are vastly more significant in doing that. People probably don’t want to hear this but when you listen to a foreign station that you don’t pay a subscription for or , more likely, pay a licence fee for you are potentially depriving thousands of musicians and radio employees of income.Unless that station has bought global rights (unlikely as it’s extraordinarily expensive) more likely they just don’t care about such things. But to be honest how far do you take these things? It seems many solar panels made in China are made by slave labour - how many refuse to use them here?

Personally when I was BBC staff I never cared that much about illegal rebroadcast. The only time I ever got YouTube to take material down was when the ultimate rights owner (a freelance photographer) complained . Now I have to take it a bit more seriously as I’m freelance. Though I’m pretty relaxed about it as my residuals are tiny. They won’t be for opera singers , conductors , soloists , actors , directors - they will literally be thousands if not tens of thousands a year. In the case of a MacCartney millions,

Meanwhile on a musical and rights note I hear one of the most popular football chants these days is “We’ve got our Fire sticks .” All sung to the tune of La Donna è Mobile. Followed by “Sky TV Is F***ing S***.

The Fire sticks are illegally tampered with to receive Sky sports via NOW.

re Tunein - this case was an interesting precedent

https://www.scl.org/10731-tunein-radio-aggregator-service-infringed-right-to-communicate-musical-copyright-works-to-public-holds-high-court/

[Roger Webb]

https://james.cridland.net/blog/2025/bbc-radio-overseas/

Yes thanks Dermot, I hadn't noticed the development.

As it stands then, we in the UK cannot listen to the BBC music programmes via an aggregator (except it seems a reduced bitrate via VRadio), we have to use Sounds. Those listening outside the UK will not be able to listen via Sounds app. but may be able to listen via one of the aggregators (TuneIn?).

It seems Ein Heldenleben was mistaken in giving his reason for the BBC discontinuing music broadcast, as a 'rights' issue...unless they've just discovered a pot of money somewhere!

The BBC's policy on digital broadcasting has always been a mess....would it not be a good idea to get someone in who really understands how listeners listen! Many of us bought streamers in the belief that we could use them to stream BBC stations here, in the country where we pay a licence fee! I have already junked one streamer (Marantz) because it uses TuneIn....TuneIn is useless in this country as it doesn't carry foreign stations....or BBC ones! My present streamer (Quad, with Playfi app.) is brilliant for foreign stations (with 'native' VTuner app.), but doesn't have BBC stations!

I believe the real reason we in the UK are 'encouraged' to use the Sounds app. is for 'head-counting' reasons....keep the bean counters happy and the management's happy - as long as those numbers appear to go up.

Meanwhile I'm enjoying my exploration of foreign classical music stations....YLE on at the moment!