"Most BBC radio stations to become unavailable for international users"

[Roger Webb]

The internal PCM a distribution system used by the BBC is way better than most of the codecs used in digital transmission (or so they tell me - I couldn’t hear the difference .

I read somewhere that effective bit “sampling “ rate of FM is estimated to be the equivalent of 3,000 kbps . That’s why if you listen to Choral Evensong it sounds so much more present and warm on FM than on Sounds. There’s all sorts of jiggery pokery even on the better streamers like Qobuz which means that (unless you download) even the hi end stuff is never as good as they claim.

However as you say re FM it’s only 40db range and is not noiseless.
As for compression that’s a volume on its own. All recordings are artefacts and there is range control built into the system - just by moving faders up and down - it’s not the same as automatic compression but it’s still range control. I still think some of the best sound to be heard anywhere is on a live Royal Albert Hall / Royal Opera House relay - mainly because there’s been so little processing between mic and loudspeaker . Yes you can hear the compression slam in but it doesn’t sound so processed almost unnaturally brilliant like many modern studios recordings . I reckon all sorts of sweetening goes on.

I agree with everything you say. For live choral music FM may 'sound' better, but I think that is maybe because the restricted upper frequency limit filters out the components that have always been troublesome for recordings....in the same way a cassette copy of a CD doesn't have those distortion components that the original has. It has always been a problem for the very top of strings too.

I've just listened to some Bax from early Chandos recordings, I have LP, CD and Qobuz to compare. The LP is pristine and plays with a pleasing 'roundness' to the sound...but still a little distortion on the top strings. The CD cleaner body to the sound, but marked edginess to the top. The Qobuz at 16/44.1 should be the same as the CD, but sounds best of all....don't know why.

I agree about live (and I mean live) broadcasts...BBC Proms etc (not forgetting Monday Wigmore Hall), and I listen to many continental live concerts - they vary, as I said earlier France Musique is worst for auto-compression, WDR3 have high standards...although a recent Blomstedt Bruckner 9 was awful, but perhaps they had bought it in already 'limited'. RBB3 have very good 'live' engineered concerts, as does BR Klassik, probably my favourite for live concerts (Rattle in his new home!) and BTW the broadcast of many that are available on their own label CDs...Haitink, etc.

For me nothing beats a live concert in-the-flesh, but living in the sticks now it's difficult - my main source of live music making is Hellens, Much Marcle, a remarkable venue for chamber music....shortly Daniel Tong is heading up a Beethoven series to play all the major works for piano and strings. His previous visits have given music making of superlative quality. We also get Christian Blackshaw who heads the Hellens Music festival every year.

[AuntDaisy]

The changes for International listeners made PM yesterday, ~26:48 in on Sounds.
Interesting discussion between Evan Davis & James Cridland, Radio Futorologist (& part-time Madame Sosostris?), but I'm still no clearer as to how things will work long term or if it might impact UK non-Sounds users.
There's mention of a possible (temporary?) Smart Speaker loophole and VPNs (~31mins in).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00298p9

[Ein Heldenleben]

I agree with everything you say. For live choral music FM may 'sound' better, but I think that is maybe because the restricted upper frequency limit filters out the components that have always been troublesome for recordings....in the same way a cassette copy of a CD doesn't have those distortion components that the original has. It has always been a problem for the very top of strings too.

I've just listened to some Bax from early Chandos recordings, I have LP, CD and Qobuz to compare. The LP is pristine and plays with a pleasing 'roundness' to the sound...but still a little distortion on the top strings. The CD cleaner body to the sound, but marked edginess to the top. The Qobuz at 16/44.1 should be the same as the CD, but sounds best of all....don't know why.

I agree about live (and I mean live) broadcasts...BBC Proms etc (not forgetting Monday Wigmore Hall), and I listen to many continental live concerts - they vary, as I said earlier France Musique is worst for auto-compression, WDR3 have high standards...although a recent Blomstedt Bruckner 9 was awful, but perhaps they had bought it in already 'limited'. RBB3 have very good 'live' engineered concerts, as does BR Klassik, probably my favourite for live concerts (Rattle in his new home!) and BTW the broadcast of many that are available on their own label CDs...Haitink, etc.

For me nothing beats a live concert in-the-flesh, but living in the sticks now it's difficult - my main source of live music making is Hellens, Much Marcle, a remarkable venue for chamber music....shortly Daniel Tong is heading up a Beethoven series to play all the major works for piano and strings. His previous visits have given music making of superlative quality. We also get Christian Blackshaw who heads the Hellens Music festival every year.

Re CD vs same CD on Qobuz being better. That gets to the nub of the issue - well one issue anyway . Qubuz will be streaming ripped CD’s .If they use a high qual ripper AND their stream is working effectively it should be better than a CD player . Some CD players use a lot of error correction , some have duff lasers. I’m betting you’ve got a very good CD player but , in theory , a ripped CD on a high qual ripper should be better. Where is gets complicated is if the Qobuz stream has errors within it then your CD might better.

My Turandot review last night was an eye (ear) opener . The remastered 24 bit Mehta recording on Qobuz was very good indeed.

This is a good explanation

https://blog.audiot.co.uk/blog/2024/3/28/what-sounds-better-streaming-or-cd

analogue was simpler wasn’t it ?

yes nothing beats live or even comes close with the possible exception of what you can hear in a professional recording cubicle but you’re looking at
£ 250,000 of gear and the same in acoustic treatment and it’s not a very relaxing environment. On the other hand at home - no coughs , no perfume etc…

[Roger Webb]

Re CD vs same CD on Qobuz being better. That gets to the nub of the issue - well one issue anyway . Qubuz will be streaming ripped CD’s .If they use a high qual ripper AND their stream is working effectively it should be better than a CD player . Some CD players use a lot of error correction , some have duff lasers. I’m betting you’ve got a very good CD player but , in theory , a ripped CD on a high qual ripper should be better. Where is gets complicated is if the Qobuz stream has errors within it then your CD might better.

My Turandot review last night was an eye (ear) opener . The remastered 24 bit Mehta recording on Qobuz was very good indeed.

This is a good explanation

https://blog.audiot.co.uk/blog/2024/3/28/what-sounds-better-streaming-or-cd

analogue was simpler wasn’t it ?

yes nothing beats live or even comes close with the possible exception of what you can hear in a professional recording cubicle but you’re looking at
£ 250,000 of gear and the same in acoustic treatment and it’s not a very relaxing environment. On the other hand at home - no coughs , no perfume etc…

Yes I've read several articles on CD vs Qobuz (I've tried Spotify and Tidal, Qobuz is better IME), it really depends, as you say, on how the streams are sent to the streaming companies (I'm not sure they 'rip' them themselves) from the record company, many are being a lot more careful than they were in the early days of streaming, with higher bitrates and special remasterings (not always successful).

I've, in many cases CD, Lp and Qobuz to compare. Results vary but CD and Qobuz are usually more 'accurate' than Lp (Thorens/SME/Goldring E4), CD player is Marantz 6007uk, middling quality, I suppose. Qobuz via Quad preamp and monitored on Quad electrostatics 2812s.

One thing I slightly take issue with is the claim that Qobuz is 'gapless', it now is in 90% of cases, but many/some Decca (especially) masterings are not entirely gapless. The first time they put up Solti's Ring it wasn't, but the remastered 24/96k one on there now is the best I've ever heard these famous recordings. Try Respighi/Montréal/Dutoit the Pines is supposed to run one into the next, it doesn't. That Turandot I played on Lp a little while ago - great engineering Wilkinson/Lock.....must try it on Qobuz!

[Ein Heldenleben]

Yes I've read several articles on CD vs Qobuz (I've tried Spotify and Tidal, Qobuz is better IME), it really depends, as you say, on how the streams are sent to the streaming companies (I'm not sure they 'rip' them themselves) from the record company, many are being a lot more careful than they were in the early days of streaming, with higher bitrates and special remasterings (not always successful).

I've, in many cases CD, Lp and Qobuz to compare. Results vary but CD and Qobuz are usually more 'accurate' than Lp (Thorens/SME/Goldring E4), CD player is Marantz 6007uk, middling quality, I suppose. Qobuz via Quad preamp and monitored on Quad electrostatics 2812s.

One thing I slightly take issue with is the claim that Qobuz is 'gapless', it now is in 90% of cases, but many/some Decca (especially) masterings are not entirely gapless. The first time they put up Solti's Ring it wasn't, but the remastered 24/96k one on there now is the best I've ever heard these famous recordings. Try Respighi/Montréal/Dutoit the Pines is supposed to run one into the next, it doesn't. That Turandot I played on Lp a little while ago - great engineering Wilkinson/Lock.....must try it on Qobuz!

That recording was supposedly remastered in 2013 - sounds very good ,
It would be interesting to know how Qobuz acquire CD quality recordings. I had images of an intern endlessly pressing eject on a ripper.
I’m tempted to rip mine but I calculate it’s 166.66 hours of hard labour

[Roger Webb]

It would be interesting to know how Qobuz acquire CD quality recordings. I had images of an intern endlessly pressing eject on a ripper.

I've done a bit of research into how Qobuz (and other streaming networks) get their streams to put out to us consumers.

The record company doesn't send a CD for Qobuz to 'rip'...nothing so crude! The record company (usually) goes through an intermediary - a specialist middle man who has contacts with the streaming companies, and has expertise in formatting them to the exact requirements of both the record company and streaming company, they also organise the metadata and deliver to Qobuz the content in either a WAV or FLAC file at the appropriate bitrate, depending on the quality of the source material.

Most reviews say that Qobuz has meticulous standards handling their streams, and this is bourne out by most listening tests...they are extremely robust too; it's rare to have glitches - and of course they haven't had the embarrassment of the Tidal MQA scandal!

Your comment about the equivalent 16/44.1 stream vs CD...even from a really top class CD player is valid, and it's quite remarkable given a streamer with a good DAC just how good it can sound.

With record companies going through their back catalogue and remastering at higher bitrates (and taking more trouble to get the streams optimum, something they were a bit cavalier with Cds!), we are, perhaps, hearing these recordings in the best possible sound. The Turandot (Mehta) that you mentioned, I had played on Lp coincidentally, and I can report the Qobuz stream sounds fantastic - it's very clean sounding but with no loss of body compared with the LPs, and the bass has extraordinary weight, but tight and, I think less distortion than the LPs.

If care is taken, streaming can equal or exceed sound quality of CD.....vinyl is another matter, I still love playing LPs!....often for reasons not connected with sound quality.

[Roger Webb]

I have just noticed this afternoon that BBC stations (incl. Radio 3) have returned to VRadio app, but at the reduced bitrate of AAC 96k instead of the previously available 320k....the rate that is available via Sounds app. This 96k stream may be the one available for smart speakers, although looking at comments online suggest that many owners of smart speakers (and just about all streamers) are unable to access BBC radio via internet radio.

I can see no reason why listeners abroad cannot access BBC stations via VRadio...albeit in reduced quality.

[Dermot]

I have just noticed this afternoon that BBC stations (incl. Radio 3) have returned to VRadio app, but at the reduced bitrate of AAC 96k instead of the previously available 320k....the rate that is available via Sounds app. This 96k stream may be the one available for smart speakers, although looking at comments online suggest that many owners of smart speakers (and just about all streamers) are unable to access BBC radio via internet radio.

I can see no reason why listeners abroad cannot access BBC stations via VRadio...albeit in reduced quality.

https://james.cridland.net/blog/2025/bbc-radio-overseas/

[french frank]

https://james.cridland.net/blog/2025...adio-overseas/

Thanks for that Dermot.

[Roger Webb]

https://james.cridland.net/blog/2025/bbc-radio-overseas/

Yes thanks Dermot, I hadn't noticed the development.

As it stands then, we in the UK cannot listen to the BBC music programmes via an aggregator (except it seems a reduced bitrate via VRadio), we have to use Sounds. Those listening outside the UK will not be able to listen via Sounds app. but may be able to listen via one of the aggregators (TuneIn?).

It seems Ein Heldenleben was mistaken in giving his reason for the BBC discontinuing music broadcast, as a 'rights' issue...unless they've just discovered a pot of money somewhere!

The BBC's policy on digital broadcasting has always been a mess....would it not be a good idea to get someone in who really understands how listeners listen! Many of us bought streamers in the belief that we could use them to stream BBC stations here, in the country where we pay a licence fee! I have already junked one streamer (Marantz) because it uses TuneIn....TuneIn is useless in this country as it doesn't carry foreign stations....or BBC ones! My present streamer (Quad, with Playfi app.) is brilliant for foreign stations (with 'native' VTuner app.), but doesn't have BBC stations!

I believe the real reason we in the UK are 'encouraged' to use the Sounds app. is for 'head-counting' reasons....keep the bean counters happy and the management's happy - as long as those numbers appear to go up.

Meanwhile I'm enjoying my exploration of foreign classical music stations....YLE on at the moment!

[Ein Heldenleben]

Yes thanks Dermot, I hadn't noticed the development.

As it stands then, we in the UK cannot listen to the BBC music programmes via an aggregator (except it seems a reduced bitrate via VRadio), we have to use Sounds. Those listening outside the UK will not be able to listen via Sounds app. but may be able to listen via one of the aggregators (TuneIn?).

It seems Ein Heldenleben was mistaken in giving his reason for the BBC discontinuing music broadcast, as a 'rights' issue...unless they've just discovered a pot of money somewhere!

The BBC's policy on digital broadcasting has always been a mess....would it not be a good idea to get someone in who really understands how listeners listen! Many of us bought streamers in the belief that we could use them to stream BBC stations here, in the country where we pay a licence fee! I have already junked one streamer (Marantz) because it uses TuneIn....TuneIn is useless in this country as it doesn't carry foreign stations....or BBC ones! My present streamer (Quad, with Playfi app.) is brilliant for foreign stations (with 'native' VTuner app.), but doesn't have BBC stations!

I believe the real reason we in the UK are 'encouraged' to use the Sounds app. is for 'head-counting' reasons....keep the bean counters happy and the management's happy - as long as those numbers appear to go up.

Meanwhile I'm enjoying my exploration of foreign classical music stations....YLE on at the moment!

You can’t listen to (most ) BBC output abroad unless you pay a licence fee and there’s no mechanism to do that unless things have changed. The problem is , I suspect , that the prohibitive of collection and enforecment
.
Unless I’m missing something if aggregators are relaying stations that they don’t own or pay a (very hefty ) licence to they are breaking the law by rebroadcasting them. They are also depriving musicians of the performance fees and residuals they are entitled to . The BBC can prevent relaying of its own services in the UK through legal channels. It’s more expensive and sometimes impossible to do that with foreign ones .

The main pressure groups historically in all this has been the PRS and the MU who are concerned about the impact on their members’ income . Though these days the streamers especially Spotify are vastly more significant in doing that. People probably don’t want to hear this but when you listen to a foreign station that you don’t pay a subscription for or , more likely, pay a licence fee for you are potentially depriving thousands of musicians and radio employees of income.Unless that station has bought global rights (unlikely as it’s extraordinarily expensive) more likely they just don’t care about such things. But to be honest how far do you take these things? It seems many solar panels made in China are made by slave labour - how many refuse to use them here?

Personally when I was BBC staff I never cared that much about illegal rebroadcast. The only time I ever got YouTube to take material down was when the ultimate rights owner (a freelance photographer) complained . Now I have to take it a bit more seriously as I’m freelance. Though I’m pretty relaxed about it as my residuals are tiny. They won’t be for opera singers , conductors , soloists , actors , directors - they will literally be thousands if not tens of thousands a year. In the case of a MacCartney millions,

Meanwhile on a musical and rights note I hear one of the most popular football chants these days is “We’ve got our Fire sticks .” All sung to the tune of La Donna è Mobile. Followed by “Sky TV Is F***ing S***.

The Fire sticks are illegally tampered with to receive Sky sports via NOW.

re Tunein - this case was an interesting precedent

https://www.scl.org/10731-tunein-radio-aggregator-service-infringed-right-to-communicate-musical-copyright-works-to-public-holds-high-court/

[Roger Webb]

You can’t listen to (most ) BBC output abroad unless you pay a licence fee and there’s no mechanism to do that unless things have changed. The problem is , I suspect , that the prohibitive of collection and enforecment
.
Unless I’m missing something if aggregators are relaying stations that they don’t own or pay a (very hefty ) licence to they are breaking the law by rebroadcasting them. They are also depriving musicians of the performance fees and residuals they are entitled to . The BBC can prevent relaying of its own services in the UK through legal channels. It’s more expensive and sometimes impossible to do that with foreign ones .

The main pressure groups historically in all this has been the PRS and the MU who are concerned about the impact on their members’ income . Though these days the streamers especially Spotify are vastly more significant in doing that. People probably don’t want to hear this but when you listen to a foreign station that you don’t pay a subscription for or , more likely, pay a licence fee for you are potentially depriving thousands of musicians and radio employees of income.Unless that station has bought global rights (unlikely as it’s extraordinarily expensive) more likely they just don’t care about such things. But to be honest how far do you take these things? It seems many solar panels made in China are made by slave labour - how many refuse to use them here?

Personally when I was BBC staff I never cared that much about illegal rebroadcast. The only time I ever got YouTube to take material down was when the ultimate rights owner (a freelance photographer) complained . Now I have to take it a bit more seriously as I’m freelance. Though I’m pretty relaxed about it as my residuals are tiny. They won’t be for opera singers , conductors , soloists , actors , directors - they will literally be thousands if not tens of thousands a year. In the case of a MacCartney millions,

Meanwhile on a musical and rights note I hear one of the most popular football chants these days is “We’ve got our Fire sticks .” All sung to the tune of La Donna è Mobile. Followed by “Sky TV Is F***ing S***.

The Fire sticks are illegally tampered with to receive Sky sports via NOW.

re Tunein - this case was an interesting precedent

https://www.scl.org/10731-tunein-rad...ds-high-court/

Yes, all of that I agree with.

But the BBC and interested parties, performing rights-wise have to realise with digital communication - the possibilities of which are ever increasing - that it's not going to be possible to police them as they would wish to do. Actually, it has always been thus....but to a lesser degree - for example I had friends who lived in Normandy in the 80s who were classical music fans and listened to BBC Radio 3 on FM with a massive 6 element Yagi array mounted on their roof - they didn't pay a license fee. It has merely become easier to listen to stations from all parts of the globe with the advent of internet radio... 'resistance is useless'!

I followed the TuneIn case and I, like a lot of people were amazed that they didn't appeal against the ruling...it seems quite surprising that Warners et al didn't see fit to sue other aggregators similarly, and that, whilst the lawyers did ok, Warners et al (and those musicians they represent) were not one penny better off for forcing listeners to move the dial, so to speak, to another aggregator, but it did annoy us who had to junk our streamers! How many 'smart speakers' went to the tip in the BBCs attempt to force Sounds app. use on listeners by their 'Shoutcast' decision?!

I love(d) BBC Radio 3 (when in the early 70s I was sent to work in a Communication Centre in the Middle East I used to get an Oppo in London to send the Proms on one of the 'spare' network channels usually used for engineering chit-chat so I could listen on the night watch!), but I'm afraid I'm drifting away (from the BBC, that is!).....making a series of incoherent statements, retracted almost immediately after being discussed on a BBC news programme doesn't fill me with confidence in the management structure.

[Roger Webb]

Just stumbled across this:-

https://blog.thoroughlygood.me/2025/03/24/heres-why-it-makes-sense-that-bbc-proms-and-bbc-radio-3-is-not-available-internationally/

[Forget It (U2079353)]

you cite an blog that says: BBC Proms has to be paid for by something for goodness sake

The Proms are already syndicated overseas. They get paid for.
The RAI Radio 3 in Italy often relays the Proms live - with their own interval talks.
I guess they are similarly heard and paid for in the US.

[Ein Heldenleben]

The Proms are already syndicated overseas. They get paid for.
The RAI Radio 3 in Italy often relays the Proms live - with their own interval talks.
I guess they are similarly heard and paid for in the US.

In the case of RAI there are probably free as part of the EBU deal.