HDMI Cables

[Gordon]

Gordon, I think I misrepresented my hifi man. He didnt actually say that you will automatically lose quality with cheaper cables, only that there is a risk that you might ... with which I guess you agree?

He does run a shop with a lot of very expensive (and good) equipment, so I guess he is used to customers to whom twenty five quid for a cable would not cause any raised eyebrows.

Yes!! and Yes!! Years ago when I bought my current speakers and amplifier I did a lot of listening at a HiFi shop that sadly is no more but at which I eventually left behind a tidy sum of cash. After a bit of haggling and a discussion about speaker leads and interconnect in which I played the hard sceptic I got myself a few hundred pounds worth [retail that is - much cheaper to him of course] of high spec cables for "free" - I reckoned it was a 10% discount!! I suspect he still made healthy profit which I was happy for him to have because of the service he provided [and patience!].

[Dave2002]

Ah, that old conundrum. I bought a van den Hul HDMI cable for my Denon 2012/LG setup and there was a distinct improvement in picture sharpness/solidity compared with a bog-standard one. Ditto the Furutech USB cable I use for my Mac/M-DAC; a distinct improvement in clarity, perceived 'space' and extended - but not overblown - bass.

I'll get me coat...

i don't think Gordon and I are suggesting that it isn't possible to have better quality cable which does give better results, but firstly any improvements are often likely to be marginal, and in terms of marginal improvement/delta cost not a good thing. People who pay a fortune for some kit are often unwilling to admit that it's not a great deal better or indeed worse than something which costs a fraction of what they paid.

The other point about cables is that they often don't really improve the signals, but simply degrade them less than other cables. The points about HDMI being essentially a digital channel means that within reason, good threshold detection of the 1s and 0s, and good error correction on the links there's not really anything significant to go wrong. Screened cable should minimise interference - but even if there is interference, it's generally unlikely to turn 0s into 1s or vice-versa. I suppose it could interfere with the clock synchronisation at each end, and that could give an audible or visible effect.

However, there are odd things. When I used to try to extract video from an earlier model PVR over a USB cable I discovered that some files were difficult to copy across, but they were always easier if the cable was suspended a few inches above the floor (on which it would otherwise have rested).There was one cable which did a better job (failed less frequently) than the others, though even that needed to be suspended. Presumably this was due to errors in the comms link, which stopped the data transfer. That particular problem was also (apparently) influenced by poor drivers on the device(s) connected - and the PVR manufacturer was apparently not too bothered to the extent of at least minimising the problem by issuing new drivers for their end of the connection. As I recall it also made a difference which computer was connected to the end of the USB link - again apparently because different manufacturers use different chip sets. Mostly they're all supposed to be compatible, but if theres's some sloppy coding in the drivers then things can go astray, probably due to timing errors and poor error recovery. So, yes - somethings do make a difference.

On the assumption that pricey kit uses good-quality materials why let the sde down with the equivalent of bell wire?

Some pricey kit is good, some perhaps not so good, but relies on "reputation". You have also jumped to assumptions (a) that bell wire could not do the job [probably couldn't] and also (b) that we have been recommending poorer quality connections [which I don't think we have ...] We are just suggestig that some products are hyped up, and not really any better than other cheaper products which may be perfectly satisfactory.

[Dave2002]

Yes!! and Yes!! Years ago when I bought my current speakers and amplifier I did a lot of listening at a HiFi shop that sadly is no more but at which I eventually left behind a tidy sum of cash. After a bit of haggling and a discussion about speaker leads and interconnect in which I played the hard sceptic I got myself a few hundred pounds worth [retail that is - much cheaper to him of course] of high spec cables for "free" - I reckoned it was a 10% discount!! I suspect he still made healthy profit which I was happy for him to have because of the service he provided [and patience!].

Yes, but what did you think of the cables? Analogue cable links definitely can make a difference, though how much it's worth paying I'm not sure. I was very sceptical for a long while, until I heard a CD of the sound of a glass falling (Cosi fan tutte, Davis?) - which I'd never really noticed until I changed the interconnects. I recall being less convinced about speaker cable - though again it does make a difference (I think ...!!).

[richardfinegold]

Ah, that old conundrum. I bought a van den Hul HDMI cable for my Denon 2012/LG setup and there was a distinct improvement in picture sharpness/solidity compared with a bog-standard one. Ditto the Furutech USB cable I use for my Mac/M-DAC; a distinct improvement in clarity, perceived 'space' and extended - but not overblown - bass. On the assumption that pricey kit uses good-quality maetrials why let the sde down with the equivalent of bell wire?

I'll get me coat...

I had bought an Audioquest HDMI cable when my system was new. After a few years the connector part broke when I was moving some components around, rendering it non usable. I still had the generic cable that came with the TV and noted no difference in picture or sound when I used it

[Gordon]

Yes, but what did you think of the cables?

Having got them I just installed and forgot. I haven't got the time to go experimenting with alternatives [I'm not really a HiFi fan, I just acquired good equipment to listen to not to play with] so having this gift horse I did not count its teeth. Having spent over 40 years in the professional audio/video business, R&D and manufacture, I've had enough of fiddling with hardware and chasing a fraction of a dB and few nanoseconds.

I bi-wire[about 10 metres] the speakers and the quad cable is thick, each quad bundle is about 1.2cm diameter, and multi-stranded, the interconnects were identical for CD etc and about 70cm long - can't see the manufacturer on them but they have gold plated connectors and they are about 5mm in diameter with brown PVC insulation - they look like aerial lead!! Without cutting one open [] I can't say what the stranding and screening is like. They work and I'm quite happy with the sound, it's fit for my purpose.

[Stunsworth]

HDMI uses a lot of 'handshaking' between the two devices. I'd be wary of using a _very_ cheap cable in case these were compromised.

As an aside I had a lot of problems with a USB drive on my Mac. I would work ok for days, and then suddenly the connection would be lost. Then a few hours later it would appear again. For months I thought it was a problem with the drive, but replacing the (very) cheap cable that came with the drive solved the problem. So I tend to avoid the cheapest cables, even though everyone says 'bits are bits' a cable isn't just a piece of wire.

[jayne lee wilson]

Ah, that old conundrum. I bought a van den Hul HDMI cable for my Denon 2012/LG setup and there was a distinct improvement in picture sharpness/solidity compared with a bog-standard one. Ditto the Furutech USB cable I use for my Mac/M-DAC; a distinct improvement in clarity, perceived 'space' and extended - but not overblown - bass. On the assumption that pricey kit uses good-quality maetrials why let the sde down with the equivalent of bell wire?

I'll get me coat...

I think I'll join you and bring an umbrella too... I use a Kimber B-Bus USB ( in Asynchronous Mode) for 24-bit/lossless music and it does indeed outperform a cheap computer accessory.... the Kimber has cute little cylinders attached with ferrite noise-reducing beads in them.
Colloms did a comparative USB review for HiFiCritic a few years ago and wasn't impressed by the higher-priced ones! He reckoned £50 - £100 should be enough even in very revealing systems. Kimber and Chord both did well.

For HDMI, don't forget good old QED -

http://www.qed.co.uk/hdmi-and-digital/hdmi.htm

Always very well made, among the best for value. I bought the Performance HDMI which is pleasingly chunky & flexible with very rugged connectors. The Reference Optical cable is good too... But I don't use these in the main hifi rig, just in a modest TV setup. As Mahlerei implies, some of us wouldn't dare to relate some of our outer limits cable experiences... - not everything you hear can be measured, not everything you measure can be heard...

But I think it's mostly about jitter & RF... probably...

[richardfinegold]

I think I'll join you and bring an umbrella too... I use a Kimber B-Bus USB ( in Asynchronous Mode) for 24-bit/lossless music and it does indeed outperform a cheap computer accessory.... the Kimber has cute little cylinders attached with ferrite noise-reducing beads in them.
Colloms did a comparative USB review for HiFiCritic a few years ago and wasn't impressed by the higher-priced ones! He reckoned £50 - £100 should be enough even in very revealing systems. Kimber and Chord both did well.

For HDMI, don't forget good old QED -

http://www.qed.co.uk/hdmi-and-digital/hdmi.htm

Always very well made, among the best for value. I bought the Performance HDMI which is pleasingly chunky & flexible with very rugged connectors. The Reference Optical cable is good too... But I don't use these in the main hifi rig, just a modest TV setup. As Mahlerei implies, some of us wouldn't dare to relate some of our outer limits cable experiences... - not everything you hear can be measured, not everything you measure can be heard...

But I think it's mostly about jitter & RF... probably...

I think it is reasonable to use cables that purport to be better than the cheapest generic. As Gongers Quote showed, the cable manufacturers will stretch this to ludicrous degree. And my one example of swapping a higher end HDMI cable for a generic and perceiving no difference has made me skeptical about digital cables, but analog cables are more prone to sonic differences..
The OP never told us (or I missed it) what BDP was purchased. If it cost 100 pounds, then a cable costing more than 10 pounds would seem unwise to me. I have seen cases of people falling for the claims of cable manufacturers and spending more on the cable than the source component .

[mahlerei]

Richsrd

I agree, there's no point in spending much on cables if the components are cheap and cheerful. However, more revealing/expesive kit can benefit from such upgrades. A while ago I experimented with Chord and Merlin cables for my Marantz SACD player and Lehmann headphone amp. I'd hesitate to say one sounded *better* than the other, but they did sound very different. I chose the one that offered the sonic virtues I was after. Given that the Marantz/Lehmann/Sennheiser combo cost around £1500 the cables represented a mere 5% of that (approx. £75). I wouldn't have paid much more than that.

[richardfinegold]

I follow the 10% rule--and willingly spend much less-on cables.
You don't mention if the cables for your SACD and headphone amp are digital or analog cables. I think difference between analog cables are more of a real phenomenon than between digital cables, but your mileage may vary.
Most of my analog cables are Nordost Blue Heaven, which i think are very neutral sounding (ideally, a cable shouldn't have any sound) and a reasonable cost. They are unshielded, however, which means that placing them close to a television can be problematic in terms of hum.

[Dave2002]

The OP never told us (or I missed it) what BDP was purchased. If it cost 100 pounds, then a cable costing more than 10 pounds would seem unwise to me. I have seen cases of people falling for the claims of cable manufacturers and spending more on the cable than the source component .

Actually I looked up the suggested Sony model, and although it was less than £100, it did seem to be rather good. I still think that a cable for £10 or less would work well with it, but if you are going to be picky and squeeze more out, then maybe a good cable for up to £25 would still give an improvement. On the other hand, the cheapest at Amazon is hardly expensive - and gets a fair number of stars, and if it doesn't work, then at about £1 it's hardly a great loss.

[mahlerei]

I follow the 10% rule--and willingly spend much less-on cables.
You don't mention if the cables for your SACD and headphone amp are digital or analog cables. I think difference between analog cables are more of a real phenomenon than between digital cables, but your mileage may vary.
Most of my analog cables are Nordost Blue Heaven, which i think are very neutral sounding (ideally, a cable shouldn't have any sound) and a reasonable cost. They are unshielded, however, which means that placing them close to a television can be problematic in terms of hum.

Analogue, as the amp did not have its own DAC. A neutral cable is all very well but it's not the only link in the chain. I have found that what sounds subjectively neutral in one system can sound very coloured in another. Surely it's all about careful matching?

[Conchis]

Hi, all

You can check from the other thread on what machine I went for in the end.

I picked up a 2m HDMI cable from Sainsburys (own brand) and, thus far, no problems. The cost? Thirteen English pounds. Was I done, or what?

[richardfinegold]

Hi, all

You can check from the other thread on what machine I went for in the end.

I picked up a 2m HDMI cable from Sainsburys (own brand) and, thus far, no problems. The cost? Thirteen English pounds. Was I done, or what?

I think you probably paid a few quid more than you had to, but it sounds like you got a good deal on the BDP, so don't lose any sleep over it.

[Frances_iom]

not as bad as that tested audiophile ethernet cable - http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/...no-difference/