Freeview and 4G

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  • Gordon
    Full Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 1425

    #16
    Mangerton is right that Crystal Palace, where it is most likely your service and the 9 multiplexes there come from, are set in the low channel numbers, 20s and 30s, well away from the 4G signals which are beyond channel 60 at the top of the band. IOW direct interference from a base station is unlikely provided you have a filter in the aerial lead to block the 4G which sits where some DTT signals used to be [see post #2 above for Dave].

    Selective loss of multiplexes is odd but suggests targetted channels - ie specific frequencies are affected - which then suggests a frequency selective problem. This could be propagation related - strong semi-permanent echoes [the Canary Wharf problem] from tall buildings in the path that escape the guard interval of the robust modulation used [especially on the HD multiplexes] but this seems unlikely given the short distances between you and the transmitters [about 15km depending where in Central London you are] or a local installation problem leading to a mismatched aerial lead. This seems unlikely if you've had professional people to do the installation, let's hope they can find and fix the problem for you. In London spurious transmissions not to say pirates are not out of the question.

    However, your description of the problem suggests that the causal source is variable, a retune works for a while and then fails. Your TV memory should keep track of where the signals are once its first tuning is done and so even if the signal faded out the receiver still knows where to look when it is there so that if you tune in to a specific service the receiver will find it. These intermittent problems are annoying!!

    Another outside possibility is that, being so close to the powerful transmitters at CP [200kW for most but a lot less for the Local London and some of the HD ones], you have too much signal!! This can often cause as much trouble as too little by overloading the receivers. Do the new HD channels in 33 and 35 which are at much less power remain stable? The aerial guy on Monday should check this for you.
    Last edited by Gordon; 04-06-15, 18:17.

    Comment

    • Nick Armstrong
      Host
      • Nov 2010
      • 26575

      #17
      Some impressive know-how here. I hope you realise that if the aerial guy can't fix it, you've got the job, mangerton and Gordon!

      Seriously, thanks for the thoughts
      "...the isle is full of noises,
      Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
      Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
      Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

      Comment

      • Dave2002
        Full Member
        • Dec 2010
        • 18045

        #18
        Originally posted by Cockney Sparrow View Post
        Looking back to this thread, and the info I absorbed on the ATV aerial supplier site, they stress the importance of getting the right aerial for digital, are insistent on decent cable (indicating most cable sold is not the best)- and then there is a decent chance of avoiding amplifiers, etc.

        As my mast was coming off the chimney lashing I was paying a man to go up on the roof, so it suited me to invest in an aerial tailored to the transmitter and decent cable into the loft diplexer. And I've had no digital break up and get a very decent FM signal as a result of the changes made.

        I understand, Dave, that you are trying to avoid renewing the aerial, so this is a "by the bye" comment .

        (BTW, I didn't get around to trying the DIY DAB aerial in the Scottish borders next opportunity - August....)e
        I do think that the cable can present issues, and indeed the cable from the roof downwards is rather old. Ideally it should be replaced, though sometimes the differences are not as great as some suppliers would have one think. I did replace some seemingly good but very cheap cable to our satellite dish with the best I could reasonably afford, and when I subsequently measured the signals there was virtually no difference from before.

        However, the cable down the roof from the analogue TV aerial is historic, and very likely has deteriorated, and if I do get a man on the roof it should definitely be replaced. When we moved into our current house over a decade ago I did investigate having aerials put up, but the quote I had was over £500, and other things were more important. Since then we have muddled along, but mostly things have been OK.

        There are no daisy chained devics in our set up. Perhaps having a satellite system which works rather well has led to neglect of the Freeview feed as it deteriorates, though sometimes the quality is really good. It is the sporadic nature of the problems which has led to my questions here. Normally I put such intermittend and inconsistent behaviour down to weather, or interference if such is obvious (e.g a fridge switching on/off).

        The one phone mast I am aware of which may be the source of 3G/4G signals is approx 1.5-2 miles away. Mobile phone reception at ground level in our immediate area tends to be poor, and there are spots in the vicinity where there is no reception. 3G reception (as tested with 3G iPads) is similar, but the way that mobile networks function with adaptive power and possibly variable beams etc. does not rule out the possibility that there could be interference if the techical characteristics of the mobile networks have changed during the last year. There is a planning application for a new slightly taller mast to replace the current one which may bring further changes.

        Re that DIY aerial - I'm not convinced that it works well enough - but your Scottish border circumstances may be considerably different. It is a very cheap thing to construct if you already have some spare cable. I'd recommend putting it on a piece of cane (spare garden cane) or wood, and tape to fasten the cable to that, rather than just using the wire hanging down. You'ld also need to have some spare connectors. It doesn't work well enough for me.

        Comment

        • Cockney Sparrow
          Full Member
          • Jan 2014
          • 2292

          #19
          In an attempt to avoid escalating bills, I ordered the suitable aerial, replacement pole and recommended cable, etc from the Sheffield aerial supplier and it came quickly and well packed. I prepared it all, with co-ax connected and found a local aerial man who, taking about 30 minutes overall, put it on the chimney stack (orientated it with his signal meter of course) and put the cable through the roof tiles into the loft. I dealt with connection from there, and he charged me £80.

          Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
          Re that DIY aerial - I'm not convinced that it works well enough - but your Scottish border circumstances may be considerably different. It is a very cheap thing to construct if you already have some spare cable. I'd recommend putting it on a piece of cane (spare garden cane) or wood, and tape to fasten the cable to that, rather than just using the wire hanging down. You'ld also need to have some spare connectors. It doesn't work well enough for me.
          Actually...... the DIY aerial is waiting for me...... lashed to a timber strip, with spare connectors attached to that. As we were leaving, I realised I hadn't tried connecting it (I was very annoyed with myself!) However I have been given a manufactured DAB aerial, so I will be able to compare both in August. The reason we tried DAB was/is to use the kitchen and access Radio 4 UK, as we can only get BBC Scotland on FM. A DAB portable gets an acceptable signal in the garden, but inside the signal breaks up.

          Comment

          • Dave2002
            Full Member
            • Dec 2010
            • 18045

            #20
            Originally posted by Cockney Sparrow View Post
            In an attempt to avoid escalating bills, I ordered the suitable aerial, replacement pole and recommended cable, etc from the Sheffield aerial supplier and it came quickly and well packed. I prepared it all, with co-ax connected and found a local aerial man who, taking about 30 minutes overall, put it on the chimney stack (orientated it with his signal meter of course) and put the cable through the roof tiles into the loft. I dealt with connection from there, and he charged me £80.
            We have various people round us who would go up on our roof, but some of them are more trouble than they are worth - much! I would only allow people on the roof in whom I'd have high confidence and trust. I do not want to attempt anything myself, and thereby EMUlate Rod Hull, though I know of people who do risk that.

            I would probably have trusted the aerial contractor who gave me the quote years ago, but his quote was way more than I wanted to pay.

            If I'm going to have one new aerial installed, does it make sense to have several, say FM, DAB and Freeview? In that case could I have the signals brought down with a triplexer to a convienient point, and then do what you did - route the wires from there internally?

            There is still one other option, apart from trying out the filter, which as I've already mentioned is a low cost trial.
            A few years ago we had a TV point put in a newly constructed conservatory, and after a few hiccups, the electrician did manage to put in some new cable, and get it all connected correctly to an existing (I think) 3 way accessible hub, and it was working fine last time I tried that. I could try testing that connection with the YouTube PVR, and if it's OK, then the cheapest option would then be to put in new cable to the other TV points from the hub point. There'd still be some of the original cable in the overall chain, but if the results on the spare wire are OK, then it would probably be relatively cheap and easy for me to put new cable in at low level.

            OTOH, if I have to have more serious work done up by the chimney stack I would consider having more than one aerial and using a triplexer or other means of getting signals down to a suitable distribution point, either in the loft or at ground level. Suggestions?

            Comment

            • johnb
              Full Member
              • Mar 2007
              • 2903

              #21
              If you are doing work on your aerials it would make sense to check the cable.

              Most TV aerials have, in the past, been connected with what is called "Low Loss" coax - which is cheep, nasty and badly screened. I seem to remember reading that it is better to replace it with copper WF100 or CT100 satellite cable. That is what I did some years ago when I had scaffolding round the house.

              (Satellite cable is also manufactured with aluminium conductors but the aluminium is prone to deterioration should water get into the cable.)

              Comment

              • Quarky
                Full Member
                • Dec 2010
                • 2672

                #22
                Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
                .

                OTOH, if I have to have more serious work done up by the chimney stack I would consider having more than one aerial and using a triplexer or other means of getting signals down to a suitable distribution point, either in the loft or at ground level. Suggestions?
                An aerial on a pole in the garden or against a house wall may work. Probably depends on the strength of the TV signal, and the height of the aerial.

                I have a lady friend in North London, and I fixed a good quality digital aerial from Screwfix against a house wall, no more than 4.5 meters high, and pointing in the general direction of Crystal Palace. it works fine.

                Obviously, the higher the better.

                Comment

                • Dave2002
                  Full Member
                  • Dec 2010
                  • 18045

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Oddball View Post
                  An aerial on a pole in the garden or against a house wall may work. Probably depends on the strength of the TV signal, and the height of the aerial.

                  I have a lady friend in North London, and I fixed a good quality digital aerial from Screwfix against a house wall, no more than 4.5 meters high, and pointing in the general direction of Crystal Palace. it works fine.

                  Obviously, the higher the better.
                  Even our roof aerial is not ideal, as the direction it is pointing is towards the side of the house next door. It's actually possible, though I'm probably not going to go that way, that a loft aerial located right at the front of our house, might do better. I think poles outside in a suitable location are not going to work - I probably don't want such a pole at the very front in the garden, and much of the rear of the house is completely out of anything even close to line of sight conditions.

                  Re cable (msg 21) last time I bought seriously good cable I think I got it from SatCure - http://www.satcure.co.uk/accs/cables_plugs.htm. I would get more from them if I thought I could fix the current issues. The SatCure website is very helpful, as is their service, IIRC.

                  I will probably check the cables first, and if that fails I'll probably have to get a man on the roof.

                  Comment

                  • Nick Armstrong
                    Host
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 26575

                    #24
                    Originally posted by mangerton View Post
                    Cali
                    I hope you get it fixed on Monday. Do let us know what the problem was.
                    It was fixed; and was a daft and slightly mysterious problem. During the redecorations last summer, the decorators must have remounted the cover of the wallsocket for the aerial backwards in some way - the cable connecting to the bit of the socket which said 'TV' was in fact connected to the bit of the socket for 'radio' - both run off the same aerial but are different, apparently - it supplies TV signals but not as strongly. I've no idea why for 8 or 9 months, it was sufficient to provide all channels, and then over the last 2 months changed its ability to do so...

                    Anyway, sorting the socket and connecting the cable to the right outlet has restored all channels (all 150-odd of which about 12 are in any way useful ) at signal strength 10/10.

                    Bizarre.


                    Last edited by Nick Armstrong; 08-06-15, 21:22.
                    "...the isle is full of noises,
                    Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
                    Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
                    Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

                    Comment

                    • Dave2002
                      Full Member
                      • Dec 2010
                      • 18045

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Caliban View Post
                      It was fixed; and was a daft and slightly mysterious problem. During the redecorations last summer, the decorators must have remounted the cover of the wallsocket for the aerial backwards in some way - the cable connecting to the bit of the socket which said 'TV' was in fact connected to the bit of the socket for 'radio' - both run off the same aerial but are different, apparently - it supplies TV signals but not as strongly. I've no idea why for 8 or 9 months, it was sufficient to provide all channels, and then over the last 2 months changed its ability to do so...

                      Anyway, sorting the socket and connecting the cable to the right outlet has restored all channels (all 150-odd of which about 12 are in any way useful ) at signal strength 10/10.

                      Bizarre.


                      Ah - sounds like the joys of a diplexer. If so, both the radio and the TV would have had weak signals, but maybe you live in an inherently strong signal area, so the attenuation wasn't impossible to cope with. Another possibility is that the down cable itself was acting as an aerial of sorts, so the proper one at the far end wasn't really doing much! If the basic signals are strong enough it is amazing what you can sometimes get on a loose piece of wire.

                      Comment

                      • Nick Armstrong
                        Host
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 26575

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
                        Ah - sounds like the joys of a diplexer. If so, both the radio and the TV would have had weak signals, but maybe you live in an inherently strong signal area, so the attenuation wasn't impossible to cope with. Another possibility is that the down cable itself was acting as an aerial of sorts, so the proper one at the far end wasn't really doing much! If the basic signals are strong enough it is amazing what you can sometimes get on a loose piece of wire.
                        Yes apparently it's a very strong signal from Crystal Palace to the new (2011) aerial on the roof 5 floors up so that would figure.

                        All's well now though, wi't right plug in't right 'ole!

                        (Sorry to get technical )
                        "...the isle is full of noises,
                        Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
                        Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
                        Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

                        Comment

                        • mangerton
                          Full Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 3346

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Caliban View Post
                          Yes apparently it's a very strong signal from Crystal Palace to the new (2011) aerial on the roof 5 floors up so that would figure.

                          All's well now though, wi't right plug in't right 'ole!

                          (Sorry to get technical )
                          Yes, you've lost me with that technicality.

                          As you said above, bizarre, but glad to hear you got it fixed.

                          Comment

                          • Dave2002
                            Full Member
                            • Dec 2010
                            • 18045

                            #28
                            It has occurred to me that there are perhaps too many variables for our own situation. Recently things seem to have improved, so the problems could be weather related.

                            There may be differences between different channels, and also between HD and SD programmes. Last night I put on the TV to watch direct (no PVR in the link) off the same aerial, and apart from the slightly lower quality due to SD resolution, the overall picture was rather good.

                            Since we've had the YouView PVR we have tended to view in HD rather than SD, whenever possible. Since the problems are sporadic it's hard to pin down a cause - though I do intend to investigate the cable replacement options in the not too distant future.

                            Comment

                            • Anastasius
                              Full Member
                              • Mar 2015
                              • 1860

                              #29
                              This RF stuff is well-dodgy.

                              Many years ago when 625 UHF broadcasting stated up, there were lots of pockets with iffy reception. One such place sat in a valley but the strange thing was that they only got a good picture in spring/summer when the trees that lined the hills on either side of the valley were in leave. Now this was counter to perceived wisdom for leaves usually attenuated the RF signal. BBC Transmitters came to the conclusion that the RF signal was bouncing off the underside of the leaves and down into the valley. A few years later, many of the trees had to be felled and that was the end of UHF TV in the valley until a repeater was installed. The tree-felling was to the chagrin of the BBC engineers as they would have like to have been able to measure the signal strength disappear as the trees were gradually chopped down.
                              Fewer Smart things. More smart people.

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