Goodbye to HD Radio (for the moment)

[David-G]

There will be changes to on-demand streams at the end of this month.

What we know is that WMA streaming will end, but that isn't a major concern for most people.

We also know that the BBC have set up new HLS streams for on-demand (similar to the new live HLS streams).

What we don't know is whether the existing AAC on-demand streams will be turned off from the end of the month. The BBC is carefully avoiding stating whether this is the case but, going on recent experience, we shouldn't be surprised if the current AAC steams are switched off in just under two weeks time. They might provide a transitional R3 HD AAC for on-demand, as they have now done for live R3

What is somewhat worrying is how BBC staff stress how WMA is ending (almost as if it is a diversionary tactic) together with vague talk of rightholders and DMR - so heaven knows what they are planning.

Do you mean that they might switch off the iplayer HD streaming facility? That would indeed be a disaster.

[johnb]

The changes shouldn't affect the on-demand (i.e. listen again) accessed via the BBC Website, just as last weeks changes to live streaming didn't affect the live streaming on the BBC Website.

However, for on-demand accessed in other ways (e.g. internet radios, audio streamers, computer media players) all we know is that there will be no WMA streams and that the BBC are providing on-demand HLS/HDS streams (which few devices outside the Apple world support). Nobody knows whether the existing on demand AAC streams (currently used by internet radios, audio streamers, etc) will stop because the BBC refuses to say.

Last year, when the BBC told manufacturers of their planned changes to live internet radio feeds (which came into effect last week) they announced that WMA streams would end and that they would be providing live HLS/HDS streams. What they apparently did not tell the manufacturers was that the existing AAC streams would stop - which is the reason the manufacturers were caught on the hop and is the reason why there are currently hardly any devices capable of playing the new HLS/HDS streams (the Squeezebox and a few Pure devices excepted).

So, if the BBC is true to form it is likely that the current AAC on-demand internet streams will stop at the end of the month and be replaced by HLS/HDS which very few people can access.

Once again, if you access on-demand via the BBC Website you should be OK.

[Nevalti]

FM still works. Thank God they didn't turn that off or there would probably have been a licence strike. First they drive people to Internet Radio because DAB is so awful and then they make pathetically ill-planned changes that are probably going to render expensive equipment redundant - yet they are not prepared to upgrade the awful DAB - because it will make old DAB radios redundant. Where is the logic?

On the plus side, the new R3 320 kbs AAC stream SEEMS to me to be better than it was before. I have no way of measuring it, I am just judging with my ears and my memory - which may of course be flawed.

The R3 stream given on the R3 web-site obviously works well for me what are the 320kbs URLs for the other BBC stations? Has anyone found them?

[johnb]

The R3 stream given on the R3 web-site obviously works well for me what are the 320kbs URLs for the other BBC stations? Has anyone found them?

The URLs for the (live) national channels are in my post #17

[Nevalti]

The URLs for the (live) national channels are in my post #17

Thank you John. I have tried those in JRiver and MediaMonkey but both report, "There is nothing to play" for every station. Does that simply mean they are not currently streaming OR does it mean that JRiver etc does not actually play them? I have yet to investigate the Squeezebox option but will do so.

Both run the R3 link given above - and very good it is too.

EDIT.........Aha!!!!!!!!!! I have just found that they ALL work in VLC media player so it is obviously a player issue.

[gurnemanz]

FM still works. Thank God they didn't turn that off or there would probably have been a licence strike. First they drive people to Internet Radio because DAB is so awful and then they make pathetically ill-planned changes that are probably going to render expensive equipment redundant - yet they are not prepared to upgrade the awful DAB - because it will make old DAB radios redundant. Where is the logic?

FM still works but not interference-free where I live, even with a good roof aerial. I now almost never use it and listen to classical radio via Freeview or satellite which makes many foreign stations available. It was frustrating recently to hear while tuned to Bayern Klassik that they were upgrading their terrestrial transmitters to DAB+, which I assume is much better. DAB certainly is awful for hifi listening so don'I don't use for that purpose. DAB is extremely useful for the kitchen, bathroom, bedroom scenario for listening to speech programmes and includes channels not available otherwise. I wish I had it in my car where VHF is decent but quite limited. Five Live is hopeless without DAB and Test Match special on Sports Extra is far preferable to 198 long wave.

[johnb]

Thank you John. I have tried those in JRiver and MediaMonkey but both report, "There is nothing to play" for every station. Does that simply mean they are not currently streaming OR does it mean that JRiver etc does not actually play them? I have yet to investigate the Squeezebox option but will do so.

Both run the R3 link given above - and very good it is too.

EDIT.........Aha!!!!!!!!!! I have just found that they ALL work in VLC media player so it is obviously a player issue.

Nevalti, you apparently need JRiver version 20.0.71 or higher to play the BBC HLS streams. The fix to JRiver has been made within the last week.

There are reports that VLC uses a lot of processing power to deal with the new HLS streams. That isn't a problem is you are using a decent spec'd machine, but worth knowing.

The HLS streams work beautifully in Squeezebox. For Logitech Media Service (LMS) on Windows and Mac computers the procedure needs some new installs but is fairly straightforward. With Ubuntu/Debian, it needs a little more care but is nevertheless fine. For LMS running on NAS boxes it can be trickier, depending on NAS box, and some low power NAS boxes struggle (but people are looking for a solution).

I have the new streams playing fine in LMS installed on both Windows 7 and Ubuntu Server (12.04) boxes.

Let me know if you decide to try the Squeezebox route - I might be able help.

[JFLL]

This is an extremely naïve question, probably, but I should be very grateful if someone would be kind enough to help this non-techie by summarizing the sound difference between:

(1) playing Radio 3 via VLC Media Player using the 320 kbps AAC-LC stream (as helpfully posted by johnb above):

http://open.live.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/5/select/version/2.0/mediaset/http-icy-aac-lc-a/format/pls/vpid/bbc_radio_three.pls

(2) playing Radio 3 on a DAB radio connected by line-out to one's computer (or mike, in my case, because the line-out gave up its ghost after a few months on both my Pure-Evoke sets )

(3) playing Radio 3 via the iPlayer live ('HD')

(4) playing Radio 3 via Listen Again ?

I suspect that my old cloth-ears are not up to the task of differentiating them, but perhaps that might partly down to limitations in my computer and speakers.

[johnb]

This is an extremely naïve question, probably, but I should be very grateful if someone would be kind enough to help this non-techie by summarizing the sound difference between:

Between 1, 3 and 4: essentially none (they are all using the same 320 kbps AAC-LC stream). However the sound quality will be limited by the quality of the PC's soundboard, etc.

Between 2 (DAB radio -> PC) and the rest: Options 1, 3, and 4 should give better results, all other things being equal. Once again though, the differences will be limited by capabilities of the PC's soundboard and the attached speakers.

R3 DAB is (or used to be) either 192 kbps mp2 Stereo or 160 kbps mp2 Joint Stereo, depending on whether R5LSX is broadcasting.

(AAC-LC and mp2 are both "lossy" compressed formats in which the data is stored. During the compression some of the data is thrown away. The kbps gives you the amount of data, in 1000 bits per second, that the streams contain.)

So you have DAB using mp2 at 192kbps vs AAC-LC at 320kbps. Not only that but the difference between the two is even more marked as AAC-LC is a much more efficient format, i.e. it is much better even at the same bit-rate.

In addition there is a lot more processing - your DAB radio decodes the mp2 to analogue, your PC then redigitises it, passes it through its mixer, and converts it back to analogue.

[Nevalti]

FM still works but not interference-free where I live, even with a good roof aerial........... I wish I had it in my car where VHF is decent but quite limited. .......

I bet they are gradually turning down FM power to try to get us to switch to DAB!

DAB in a car is genuinely useful because bad FM areas tend to have good DAB transmitters. However, I still find FM preferable to DAB, even in a car, IF there is a good signal for both. That is probably due to the benign compression on FM. With DAB, not only do you lose the low level information they always filter out as 'noise', you also lose the remaining low level information due to road noise.

DAB bubbling mud is obviously an issue as you drive into bad signal areas.

[Nevalti]

This is an extremely naïve question, probably, but I should be very grateful if someone would be kind enough to help this non-techie by summarizing the sound difference between.......

John has answered this comprehensively but in case you are completely non-technical, I will just point out that DAB
sounds "nice and clean" because they have discarded a great deal of the sound before it gets transmitted. It amazes me how good the remnants of the music sound BUT listen to each via a good hifi system and even the cloth eared among us should easily tell the difference.

I read somewhere that the British Standard for codecs rates them on how annoying they sound! Personally, I find DAB extremely annoying but the new BBC HLS streams are easy to listen to.

[Nevalti]

...you... need JRiver version 20.0.71 or higher to play the BBC HLS streams.........
Let me know if you decide to try the Squeezebox route - I might be able help.

Thanks again John. I downloaded JRiver 20.0.73 and all channels now work perfectly.

I may well need help with the Squeezebox. It looks quite complicated. Are you aware of a beginners guide to modifying it?

[Dave2002]

JFLL

Re msg 53

There's also

(5) R3 via Freeview

(6) R3 via Freesat

(7) Other satellite systems ...

(8) Other Internet based systems - e.g YouView

and possibly also

(9) Phone network systems.

At one time I used to record from Freesat, as I thought that the bit rates were higher than DAB, but the 320 HD streams should be better.
However, the good thing is that a Freesat or Freeview PVR can be set up to record some programmes automatically - e.g CD Review.

Nevalti's comments on DAB are interesting - I'll probably come back on that later.

[johnb]

Thanks again John. I downloaded JRiver 20.0.73 and all channels now work perfectly.

I may well need help with the Squeezebox. It looks quite complicated. Are you aware of a beginners guide to modifying it?

Nevalti,

No problem. What platform do you run LMS on - is it a computer or a NAS box? If it is a computer, which operating system - Windows, Mac, other?

[Nevalti]

Nevalti,

No problem. What platform do you run LMS on - is it a computer or a NAS box? If it is a computer, which operating system - Windows, Mac, other?

It is on Windows 7.

I also use the confusingly named ZyXEL NSA 320 NAS which works with my SBT without me having to do anything - so presumably that already had the appropriate Squeeze software loaded. It would be nice if everything worked without the PC on but I guess I could live with that. The PC could be left to drift off to sleep and would, presumably, wake-up on demand?