Hi-res and streaming - again.

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  • Dave2002
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 18021

    #16
    Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post
    Dave, in the first sentence of his OP he states that he "got religion" and believes that there are differences in High Res versus CD Quality. I am not sure why you feel compelled to persuade him otherwise. I believe as he does, although I also believe that current digital reproduction has gotten really good, and that with sanely priced equipment it is possible to make the humble CD sound much better than we ever could have imagineda decade or so ago. I am listening to Kubelik's
    Schumann Fourth as I type this with my MacAir feeding my firewire dac, and while it doesn't hit the finest quality that an SACD or high res downloads can muster, it's close, and a far site better than I remember.
    Richard

    I don't feel compelled to persuade our OP otherwise. My own quests for better quality sound have often led me in certain directions, some of which have definitely seemed worthwhile at the time. I can remember the years when I chased after certain Shure cartridges, then some Ortofon cartridges, though never made it to the heights of moving coil models. Then there was the excitement of discovering CD, and perhaps some while later discovering that some vinyl decks could actually produce sounds which seemed to me at least equal to CD, but which I had never experienced in a domestic environment. Despite that I have not joined the "vinyl is better" movement - which in many ways is bonkers for modern recordings which have almost always been made using digital systems. On the other hand there are a few analogue recordings which were staggeringly good when they were released, and perhaps still are. One oddity was the early recording of (some musicians round here turn away ...) The Phantom of the Opera, which it appears was totally analogue through to the CD or LP mastering stages. That is a very good recording. Others that I like are some analogue recordings from the 1960s and 70s.

    There are two technical aspects to so-called "hi-res" recordings. One is the sampling rate, and the other is the bit depth. Some have argued that both are adequate in CD recordings - i.e a 44.1 kHz sample rate with 16 bits per PCM sample is good enough. This is discussed in this page http://www.itwriting.com/blog/articl...r-than-than-cd

    There is also a rather convincing video (can't find the link right now - I'll try to dig it out again ...) I think by a physicist, which "shows" that CD quality audio should be good enough for more or less all of us. This is based on Nyquist's sampling theorem.

    Having mentioned that, I am not totally convinced. I think there can be merits in having high sampling rates, and also more bits/sample, but this may actually be because of engineering and production factors. In Tim Anderson's article, mention is made of the "fact" that hi-res recordings are bought by people with a keen interest in high quality sound, and also perhaps a keen interest in music. This could certainly result in better quality control, and better sounding recordings, but does not necessarily mean that technically "hi-res" recordings are any better.

    Of course, if we do belong to that very niche market, and if as a result of our purchasing we do actually obtain audibly better quality recordings, then that is still good for us, even if the reasons for the quality have little to do with the recordings supposedly being made using 24 or 32 bits, or even 64 bits or floating point, and at high sampling frequencies.

    Even in the days of analogue recording there were significant differences in the sounds of different pieces of kit, and also I believed (and still do) that some recordings sounded better on some kit than others. CBS recordings were often criticised by the techno/musical press, but I liked them, and I also liked some EMI recordings. I did not particularly like too many Decca recordings. One day I heard some Decca recordings played on some equipment much better than my own - it included a Decca arm and cartridge I remember - and that sounded much better than most other systems and recordings I had heard up to then. However, I also heard some CBS recordings under conditions which seemed to bring out the best in them too - though again much better than any "normal" domestic level of reproduction.

    It's all very complex. I have different sets of loudspeakers - now some very old. One pair has 3 drive units, and voices tend to sound nasal. However they have several significant features I noticed years ago - 1. on the recording by Keilberth of the Flying Dutchman during the Sailors' Chorus, the jumping/bumping noises on the stage are very audible. Other speakers I've tried get nowhere near this - though probably some modern ones would do so. 2. On a recording of Rodrigo's Fantasia para un gentilhombre, one trumpet entry is audible - which is totally missed on smaller speakers with only two drive units. On the other hand 3. - the larger speakers sound nasal, and to some unpleasant, on speaker's voices. These difference are apparent on analogue recordings, and without any need to consider digital technology features

    It is perfectly possible to make tonal changes to recordings which may make subjective improvements without going to the extent of worrying about supersonic sounds which most of us cannot hear. Coming back to digital sources, and equipment, it may also be the case that "hi-res" kit is made to better audio standards, and hence really does deliver - though even there there may be caveats. There are several reasons why CD has generally led to better sound quality, but in some cases their analogue circuitry has not actually matched up to the expected quality of the medium. That, presumably is a significant reason why some CD players do sound different. The best players tend to be good in both digital and analogue aspects. Some manufacturers may produce "hi-res" kit simply for marketing reasons, and may actually produce equipment which sounds less good than (for example) better CD players. There will certainly be manufacturers and distributors trying to make money by declaring that their kit is 192kHz/32 bits simply because they have chips in which process signals using that standard, but if the equipment is not made to a high standard, this can be a cynical marketing ploy.

    Comment

    • richardfinegold
      Full Member
      • Sep 2012
      • 7667

      #17
      Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
      Richard

      I don't feel compelled to persuade our OP otherwise. My own quests for better quality sound have often led me in certain directions, some of which have definitely seemed worthwhile at the time. I can remember the years when I chased after certain Shure cartridges, then some Ortofon cartridges, though never made it to the heights of moving coil models. Then there was the excitement of discovering CD, and perhaps some while later discovering that some vinyl decks could actually produce sounds which seemed to me at least equal to CD, but which I had never experienced in a domestic environment. Despite that I have not joined the "vinyl is better" movement - which in many ways is bonkers for modern recordings which have almost always been made using digital systems. On the other hand there are a few analogue recordings which were staggeringly good when they were released, and perhaps still are. One oddity was the early recording of (some musicians round here turn away ...) The Phantom of the Opera, which it appears was totally analogue through to the CD or LP mastering stages. That is a very good recording. Others that I like are some analogue recordings from the 1960s and 70s.

      There are two technical aspects to so-called "hi-res" recordings. One is the sampling rate, and the other is the bit depth. Some have argued that both are adequate in CD recordings - i.e a 44.1 kHz sample rate with 16 bits per PCM sample is good enough. This is discussed in this page http://www.itwriting.com/blog/articl...r-than-than-cd

      There is also a rather convincing video (can't find the link right now - I'll try to dig it out again ...) I think by a physicist, which "shows" that CD quality audio should be good enough for more or less all of us. This is based on Nyquist's sampling theorem.

      Having mentioned that, I am not totally convinced. I think there can be merits in having high sampling rates, and also more bits/sample, but this may actually be because of engineering and production factors. In Tim Anderson's article, mention is made of the "fact" that hi-res recordings are bought by people with a keen interest in high quality sound, and also perhaps a keen interest in music. This could certainly result in better quality control, and better sounding recordings, but does not necessarily mean that technically "hi-res" recordings are any better.

      Of course, if we do belong to that very niche market, and if as a result of our purchasing we do actually obtain audibly better quality recordings, then that is still good for us, even if the reasons for the quality have little to do with the recordings supposedly being made using 24 or 32 bits, or even 64 bits or floating point, and at high sampling frequencies.

      Even in the days of analogue recording there were significant differences in the sounds of different pieces of kit, and also I believed (and still do) that some recordings sounded better on some kit than others. CBS recordings were often criticised by the techno/musical press, but I liked them, and I also liked some EMI recordings. I did not particularly like too many Decca recordings. One day I heard some Decca recordings played on some equipment much better than my own - it included a Decca arm and cartridge I remember - and that sounded much better than most other systems and recordings I had heard up to then. However, I also heard some CBS recordings under conditions which seemed to bring out the best in them too - though again much better than any "normal" domestic level of reproduction.

      It's all very complex. I have different sets of loudspeakers - now some very old. One pair has 3 drive units, and voices tend to sound nasal. However they have several significant features I noticed years ago - 1. on the recording by Keilberth of the Flying Dutchman during the Sailors' Chorus, the jumping/bumping noises on the stage are very audible. Other speakers I've tried get nowhere near this - though probably some modern ones would do so. 2. On a recording of Rodrigo's Fantasia para un gentilhombre, one trumpet entry is audible - which is totally missed on smaller speakers with only two drive units. On the other hand 3. - the larger speakers sound nasal, and to some unpleasant, on speaker's voices. These difference are apparent on analogue recordings, and without any need to consider digital technology features

      It is perfectly possible to make tonal changes to recordings which may make subjective improvements without going to the extent of worrying about supersonic sounds which most of us cannot hear. Coming back to digital sources, and equipment, it may also be the case that "hi-res" kit is made to better audio standards, and hence really does deliver - though even there there may be caveats. There are several reasons why CD has generally led to better sound quality, but in some cases their analogue circuitry has not actually matched up to the expected quality of the medium. That, presumably is a significant reason why some CD players do sound different. The best players tend to be good in both digital and analogue aspects. Some manufacturers may produce "hi-res" kit simply for marketing reasons, and may actually produce equipment which sounds less good than (for example) better CD players. There will certainly be manufacturers and distributors trying to make money by declaring that their kit is 192kHz/32 bits simply because they have chips in which process signals using that standard, but if the equipment is not made to a high standard, this can be a cynical marketing ploy.
      Dave
      I apologize for my choice of the word "compel" .
      Your journey in hi fi is interesting and I hope it has been rewarding for you.
      There are many people in Audiophilia who vehemently assert that no two components that measure alike could sound different, that here is no difference between MP3 and High Resolution, etc. I had thought that you were taking a position along those lines and telling the OP not to bother with High Resolution recordings. I see that I misunderstood your position.
      My bad.

      Comment

      • richardfinegold
        Full Member
        • Sep 2012
        • 7667

        #18
        Dave, what High Resolution recordings have you tried, outside of Phantom? The one that made a tru believer out of me was the High Res download of an old Mercury Recording, Byron Janis in Rachmaninov PC 2/3. It destroys the lp by comparison, and clearly bests the CD version which was included in one of the big Mercury Boxes. This is one of the most realistic reproductions of anything that I have ever heard.
        I recently bought a Blu Ray reissue of Karajan/BPO Mahler 5 and it is much better than the original CD issue.

        Comment

        • jayne lee wilson
          Banned
          • Jul 2011
          • 10711

          #19
          An obvious but too-infrequently mentioned point is that the "mastering path" of a reissue of an old recording will be totally different from, say, the original CD issue. So comparing a recent hi-res download or Blu Ray to an old CD or LP, it's not only the carrier that's changed. So it's impossible to say exactly where the improvement is wrought.

          Take a good Toshiba-EMI disc like the Barenboim/Boulez Bartok Concertos 1&3, even against the GROC you hear a better resolution of space, detail and often stronger dynamics. Just the very benefits you would hope to get from hi-res. But it appears to result simply from a less interventionist revelation of the master tape, warts-and-all indeed.
          But then, I just compared the EMI Red Line of the Rattle/Vogt Beethoven Concertos 1&2, with the original CD; the original has a better sound - more natural tonality & 3-D, piano better separated, easier on the ears. (Sadly, I often find budget reissues sound worse). So back the Red Line goes... you really can't take anything for granted, even with digital!

          My audition of hi-res files goes a subtly different way.
          Perhaps the nearest we can get to a true comparison domestically is to buy a new CD and 24/96 download at the same time (some sites gift you the lossless file too, for an even closer match).
          If I compare the ORR/JEG (SDG) Beethoven 2&8 24/96 with the CD, I hear a warmer, slightly fuller sound, greater timbral richness and a better sense of "flow" to the music on the hi-res. Better acoustic presence and perhaps a bigger "scale" too. But it's the kind of thing that grows on you through a movement or a whole symphony rather than between-the-eyes quick A-B. The longer the listen to each, the more obvious the differences...

          This is playing out from a Macbook** running JRiver or Audirvana+, via Kimber USB asynchronous to the T&A DAC 8, so there are two variables - HDD and cable, over the CD transport and its cable. Nonetheless, these differences seem characteristic of my experiences of hi-res playback, including lossless/hi-res comparisons. Perhaps its the greater refinement of the treble register which makes the most pleasurable difference, often allowing replay at higher levels. The Nezet-Seguin/COE Schumann cycle is a good example - it only really comes out of its shell at high volumes and the upper frequencies are seamlessly encapsulated.

          All my file replay is hardwired via USB ASynch, so the only "streaming" as such I do is the R3 HDs feed from the router - but it still goes through the Mac/USB 2 link to the Dac.

          **as noted in the Audirvana Manual, don't overlook the fact that different USB outputs sound different. Look in the Mac System Report and choose the one with fewest functions feeding off it.
          BTW, JRiver seems streets ahead of anything else for feature set, functions & ease of use! Looks great too, especially, the "Thunderstorm" skin...
          Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 07-02-15, 22:23.

          Comment

          • richardfinegold
            Full Member
            • Sep 2012
            • 7667

            #20
            Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
            An obvious but too-infrequently mentioned point is that the "mastering path" of a reissue of an old recording will be totally different from, say, the original CD issue. So comparing a recent hi-res download or Blu Ray to an old CD or LP, it's not only the carrier that's changed. So it's impossible to say exactly where the improvement is wrought.

            Take a good Toshiba-EMI disc like the Barenboim/Boulez Bartok Concertos 1&3, even against the GROC you hear a better resolution of space, detail and often stronger dynamics. Just the very benefits you would hope to get from hi-res. But it appears to result simply from a less interventionist revelation of the master tape, warts-and-all indeed.
            But then, I just compared the EMI Red Line of the Rattle/Vogt Beethoven Concertos 1&2, with the original CD; the original has a better sound - more natural tonality & 3-D, piano better separated, easier on the ears. (Sadly, I often find budget reissues sound worse). So back the Red Line goes... you really can't take anything for granted, even with digital!

            My audition of hi-res files goes a subtly different way.
            Perhaps the nearest we can get to a true comparison domestically is to buy a new CD and 24/96 download at the same time. If I compare the ORR/JEG (SDG) Beethoven 2&8 24/96 with the CD, I hear a warmer, slightly fuller sound, greater timbral richness and a better sense of "flow" to the music on the hi-res. Better acoustic presence and perhaps a bigger "scale" too. But it's the kind of thing that grows on you through a movement or a whole symphony rather than between-the-eyes quick A-B. The longer the listen to each, the more obvious the differences...

            This is playing out from a Macbook** running JRiver or Audirvana+, via Kimber USB asynchronous to the T&A DAC 8, so there are two variables - HDD and cable, over the CD transport and its cable. Nonetheless, these differences seem characteristic of my experiences of hi-res playback. Perhaps its the greater refinement of the treble register which makes the most pleasurable difference, often allowing replay at higher levels. The Nezet-Seguin/COE Schumann cycle is a good example - it only really comes out of its shell at high volumes and the upper frequencies are seamlessly encapsulated.

            All my file replay is hardwired via USB ASynch, so the only "streaming" as such I do is the R3 HDs feed from the router - but it still goes through the Mac/USB 2 link to the Dac.

            **as noted in the Audirvana Manual, don't overlook the fact that different USB outputs sound different. Look in the Mac System Report and choose the one with fewest functions feeding off it.
            BTW, JRiver seems streets ahead of anything else for feature set, functions & ease of use! Looks great too, especially, the "Thunderstorm" skin...
            I am intrigued by your references to Toshiba discs. Perhaps they are not available here.
            Some SACDs are clearly worse than a CD counterpart, or even the CD layer of the same disc.
            Your description of High Res sound is spot on. It grows on you, but doesn't immediately bowl one over. Perhaps this is part of the reason for the failure of SACD and DVD Audio. In a showroom, the improvements are subtle, and most people wouldn't perceive much improvement.

            Comment

            • johnb
              Full Member
              • Mar 2007
              • 2903

              #21
              Originally posted by Nevalti View Post
              The wifi strength was reported as only 68% when I checked. I will consider a booster or a permanent LAN cable BUT when I temporarily hooked it up with a cable, I could hear no improvement over wifi, even at only 68%.

              I have now removed the cross-fade options and set volume to fixed in the LMS all as you recommend. Previously I had the SBT volume set at maximum on the assumption that would stop the signal being corrupted but maybe the LMS set to fixed will be better?

              Now that I have made the adjustments you recommended, I need to repeat the comparisons all over again. Next week sometime.
              If swapping to a wired connection makes no difference then, obviously, the WiFi is fine.

              I'll be interested to read the results of your new comparison tests though, of course, the changes might make little or no difference as you aleady had set the Touch volume to maximum.


              If you intend to continue using the Touch/LMS (which does have many benefits) I would recommend you take a look at the latest versions of LMS. The latest Official Logitech Release is 7.7.5 but a considerable amount of work has taken place on LMS since Logitech dropped the product range. The development has been driven by Michael Herger, who was (I believe) one of the lead programmers working on LMS before Logitech pulled the plug. The latest versions are 7.8.1 and 7.9.0 (the latter being a "community" fork and incorporates many good things).

              (LMS 7.9.0 + the iPeng app running on an iPad gives an extremely good user interface IMO, especially if the Composer tag is set in the files.)

              You can find details in a post I made, replying to Dave, in another thread: http://www.for3.org/forums/showthrea...572#post465572

              By the way, I now also use a pair of PMC OB1i speakers (bought second hand). I upgraded from the FB1s last year and find the OB1i speakers very good indeed. I am currently trying to decide whether or not to splash out on an ex-demo Bryston 4B SST2 which is going at a pretty good price (a price that I could always sell it on at if I was unhappy).
              Last edited by johnb; 08-02-15, 00:08.

              Comment

              • Dave2002
                Full Member
                • Dec 2010
                • 18021

                #22
                Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post
                Dave, what High Resolution recordings have you tried, outside of Phantom? The one that made a tru believer out of me was the High Res download of an old Mercury Recording, Byron Janis in Rachmaninov PC 2/3. It destroys the lp by comparison, and clearly bests the CD version which was included in one of the big Mercury Boxes. This is one of the most realistic reproductions of anything that I have ever heard.
                I recently bought a Blu Ray reissue of Karajan/BPO Mahler 5 and it is much better than the original CD issue.
                I had forgotten about the problems with SACD. By this I mean the blocking by many SACD players of the digital output when an SACD disc is played. This seems to me to have been one of the most stupid decisions ever. Because of this I tend to play SACDs as CDs on my CD player.

                A factor in my purchasing is always to buy the SACD version compared to a CD, unless there is a huge price differential. This has been in the hope that eventually I might start using the SACD player rather than the CD unit.
                Nowadays most SACDs are in fact hybrid CDs, so that's not usually an issue, though there stilll stome recordings where the companies do maintain separate CD versions.

                You make the point that not all SACDs sound better than the equivalent CD or the CD layer on the same SACD disc. I've not done enough testing to be certain of that - I'm happy to take your word for it.

                I also have a modest collection of DVD-As, though these don't get played too often. I don't have any Blu Ray audio discs.

                Regarding my own listening to SACDs I would say that when I have tried this , for me there is not a huge difference between the CD and the SACD in 2 channel mode, though the SACDs do sound slightly smoother.

                I don't have many hi-res downloads - and those that I do have are mostly free samplers. Some are indeed good, but I have virtually no versions of music of what I'd call high quality recordings where I can any form of meaningful comparison - i.e with a 24/192 version and a CD.

                I don't disbelieve that in many cases the "hi-res" version should sound better, but cost is also a factor for me. For example, one hybrid SACD I do have is the Dunedin Consort version of the Messiah on Linn - it's very good.
                To buy a playable download version simply for comparison with the discs would cost me £18 - http://www.linnrecords.com/recording...sion-1742.aspx Similar considerations apply to the Mozart discs conducted by Charles Mackerras - http://www.linnrecords.com/recording...36--linz-.aspx

                So, on reflection, I really don't have enough material in different formats to be able to make truly informed comment - which you may suggest is a failing on my part. I'd agree, but I can't afford to buy multiple versions of many recordings simply to test/compare sound quality, and that is a limitation for me.

                You mention some of the box sets, such as the Mercury sets. Some of the recordings in those are good, and I note your comment re the Byron Janis recording. Maybe I should investigate that.

                There is, perhaps sadly, another aspect to all this - domestic harmony! Apart from the costs of buying multiple versions of recordings for evaluation purposes, I'd also have to either be swapping wires around, and reconfiguring my systems for different kit, or perhaps buy even more kit in order to be able to test out some of the hi-res material. That'd go down well!

                If I live long enough I might eventually get to do some of this, otherwise my experience of the sonic delights of some recordings may remain severely limited.

                BTW: Will you have time to take in concerts during your short stays in London and Paris?

                Comment

                • richardfinegold
                  Full Member
                  • Sep 2012
                  • 7667

                  #23
                  We have not drawn up an itinerary for our trip, but we plan on a few Concerts.
                  Virtually all SACDs are hybrids. The CD vs SACD layer comparison is done at the flick of a switch on the remote. I usually prefer the SACD layer, even in 2 channel, but not always. Some times it diffuses the soundstage. I agree that the decision to block the DSD output on SACDs is a source of frustration.
                  I don't have many High Res downloads. The expense is forbidding and the technical issues frustrate me as well. Outside of the aforementioned Janis recording I own about a dozen, none purchased in the last year. I referenced the Janis because many years ago I had the lp. I bought the High Res Version from HD Tracks and when I bought the big Mercury box it was included, and therefore I had a comparator. I then spotted the lp in a charity shop and bought it.
                  I have bought a few Blu Ray Audios but the only one that duplicated a CD in my collection was the Karajan Mahler 5.
                  I agree that it is silly to buy more than 1 version of a recording in the hopes of finding Sonic Nirvana. While the two recordings that I referenced sound better in their High Res garb, the difference isn't compelling, because the current status of digital replay has gotten so good that basic CD replay is quite satisfying.

                  Comment

                  • Dave2002
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 18021

                    #24
                    Just checked your proposed dates for your trip. Pity, you'll probably just miss the start of the Proms season. Not sure what will be on in the other halls - sometimes there are still good things in June and July, though it does become relatively bleak some years through the summer.


                    http://www.barbican.org.uk/music/eve...l.asp?ID=17384 - not classical!
                    https://wigmore-hall.org.uk/whats-on...dar?m=7&y=2015 Wigmre Hall

                    http://www.bing.com/events/search?q=...n%20Rattle&p1=[Events%20source%3d%22vertical%22+qzparentid=%226C6 209CCA104E77FD62773D808622BF1%22]&FORM=DTPEVE LSO + Rattle - not sure of programme

                    The RFH has a pretty dreadful website - a real pain to navigate - but Verdi's Ernani is on 3rd July. However, if you can find anything you want at the SouthBank Centre during your visit (RFH, QEH, PR) it's a pretty good venue.



                    Glyndebourne is on, but expensive - and a one hour's train ride away from London - http://www.glyndebourne.com/tickets-...festival-2015/ plus generally formal dress event.

                    I quite fancy going to Paris to hear concerts in the new hall there - though we've not been too lucky in finding events in Paris in the past.

                    Good luck with finding anything to go to.

                    Back to Hi Res .....

                    Re Blu Ray audio, I think Ferret has commented that at least one Blu Ray audio set is really superb, and much better than any previous versions - was it the Solti Wagner set? I'm not quite sure what is required for the Blu Ray audio - if 2 channel could be analogue outputs from Blu Ray, or digital into a suitable DAC - presumably PCM.

                    Re ripping SACDs, it looks as though some early PS3s could do it easily - about the only consumer product that would - and some may still be on eBay - perhaps about £100 in the UK - but the firmware version is critical. I'm not quite sure what the ripped files are - if they are DSD then they might require a DSD DAC, though as we have discussed in previous threads, these are now available. Otherwise the DSD files would have to be converted to an appropriate PCM format - which I think can be done with software, though how reliable I'm not sure.

                    I could always hard wire my SACD player into a system, but unless I use another complete spare set, perhaps in another room, the effort of plugging in kit and unplugging it later is considerable. I suspect I'm not the only one to find that. It does do DVD-As though, and I have some of those, such as the Naxos version of VW's Sea Symphony - a work which I continue to find problematic, though the opening is magnificent. I have tried it in surround format, but that's an unusual configuration in this house. (Domestic bliss again! )

                    I could plug in a Blu Ray unit, but I'm not sure that mine will play Blu Ray audio. Maybe only some will do that format.

                    Comment

                    • richardfinegold
                      Full Member
                      • Sep 2012
                      • 7667

                      #25
                      Regarding Blu Ray Audio:
                      I thought that you (Dave) owned a 'Universal' player that would play Blu Rays, DVD-A, SACD, CD, etc. If not then you could consider replacing your current
                      disc spinner with one of the models from Oppo, Cambridge Audio, Marantz, Pioneer, NAD, etc. Some good ones to be had for the sub $500 range although in order to get the full 32 bit Sabre DAC you probably have to exceed $1000.
                      If that isn't an option, Sony Blu Ray players are dirt cheap--my last cost me $70 with tax. It will play SACD although I don't use it for that. It has an Optical output (besides HDMI) that will feed a DAC. As far as I know, the Optical output does not downsample the Blu Ray, but I would check before I bought a given model. So it would be a relatively inexpensive way to add Blu Ray Audio. You will need a monitor to work the menus; if there is already a monitor in your system that has room for an HDMI input you are good to go. Otherwise some PCs now accept HDMI inputs so you could possibly go that route, although I am not sure you can put the video from the BRP into the computer and the audio in to your dac simultaneously.
                      Blu Ray Audio may never become more than a niche product, but with the cost of the players themselves being so low, I think we will see more of it. I personally prefer it to high resolution downloads, which are more expensive and involve a lot of computer expertise. I suspect Blu Ray will probably focus on reissuing old recordings in spiffed up sound, while newer recordings will choose downloads for their high resolution formats

                      Comment

                      • Nevalti

                        #26
                        Originally posted by johnb View Post
                        If swapping to a wired connection makes no difference then, obviously, the WiFi is fine.

                        I'll be interested to read the results of your new comparison tests though, of course, the changes might make little or no difference as you aleady had set the Touch volume to maximum.


                        If you intend to continue using the Touch/LMS (which does have many benefits) I would recommend you take a look at the latest versions of LMS. The latest Official Logitech Release is 7.7.5 but a considerable amount of work has taken place on LMS since Logitech dropped the product range. The development has been driven by Michael Herger, who was (I believe) one of the lead programmers working on LMS before Logitech pulled the plug. The latest versions are 7.8.1 and 7.9.0 (the latter being a "community" fork and incorporates many good things).

                        (LMS 7.9.0 + the iPeng app running on an iPad gives an extremely good user interface IMO, especially if the Composer tag is set in the files.)

                        You can find details in a post I made, replying to Dave, in another thread: http://www.for3.org/forums/showthrea...572#post465572

                        By the way, I now also use a pair of PMC OB1i speakers (bought second hand). I upgraded from the FB1s last year and find the OB1i speakers very good indeed. I am currently trying to decide whether or not to splash out on an ex-demo Bryston 4B SST2 which is going at a pretty good price (a price that I could always sell it on at if I was unhappy).
                        I went through a few amps before settling for the 'obvious' Bryston which obviously suits the OB1is well. I would however suggest auditioning the Paradigm (???) which impressed me greatly. It was simply too large for where it had to go and buying new furniture pushed the price higher than the Bryston.

                        If you can get a 4B at a good price, I doubt you will be disappointed. It is effortless, just like the PMCs and never stamps any obvious character on the music. Importantly to me, it is just as good playing quietly as it is playing at realistic volumes. Many amps only sound just right at one particular volume and the more difficult the load,my guess is that problem gets worse.

                        Comment

                        • richardfinegold
                          Full Member
                          • Sep 2012
                          • 7667

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Nevalti View Post
                          I went through a few amps before settling for the 'obvious' Bryston which obviously suits the OB1is well. I would however suggest auditioning the Paradigm (???) which impressed me greatly. It was simply too large for where it had to go and buying new furniture pushed the price higher than the Bryston.

                          If you can get a 4B at a good price, I doubt you will be disappointed. It is effortless, just like the PMCs and never stamps any obvious character on the music. Importantly to me, it is just as good playing quietly as it is playing at realistic volumes. Many amps only sound just right at one particular volume and the more difficult the load,my guess is that problem gets worse.
                          I've been happy with the Parasound. I don't think the Bryston was that much smaller physically.

                          Comment

                          • Dave2002
                            Full Member
                            • Dec 2010
                            • 18021

                            #28
                            You guys are now talking about kit which is considerably more expensive than I wish to spend right now.

                            Re my current kit - I do indeed have a Blu Ray player, but it's not the same device as the SACD or the CD player, or indeed one of several DVD players. Will that play Blu Ray audio, or do I need a special model for that? Looking that up, it seems that a "normal" Blu Ray player will do - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-24441979

                            This review of Karajan's Mahler 5, reissued on BRD, suggests that Blue Ray audio does have some similar "issues" to SACD, with a requirement to use HDMI to get a hi-res output, otherwise the audio output will only be the same as a conventional DVD - http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-revi...owViewpoints=1

                            Here is a review of Solti's Blu Ray audio disc of Wagner's Ring - http://www.amazon.co.uk/WAGNER-RING-...s=solti+wagner

                            Comment

                            • richardfinegold
                              Full Member
                              • Sep 2012
                              • 7667

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
                              You guys are now talking about kit which is considerably more expensive than I wish to spend right now.

                              Re my current kit - I do indeed have a Blu Ray player, but it's not the same device as the SACD or the CD player, or indeed one of several DVD players. Will that play Blu Ray audio, or do I need a special model for that? Looking that up, it seems that a "normal" Blu Ray player will do - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-24441979

                              This review of Karajan's Mahler 5, reissued on BRD, suggests that Blue Ray audio does have some similar "issues" to SACD, with a requirement to use HDMI to get a hi-res output, otherwise the audio output will only be the same as a conventional DVD - http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-revi...owViewpoints=1

                              Here is a review of Solti's Blu Ray audio disc of Wagner's Ring - http://www.amazon.co.uk/WAGNER-RING-...s=solti+wagner
                              I am not sure that all Blu Ray players need HDMI to output high res. The Universal Player that I own outputs Into a 32 bit DAC in the analog stage.
                              It sounds like you have to many players, Dave. It sounds like it would be worth the 500 pound outlay for a good Universal Player. Your wife will be happy because you eliminated about 3 boxes in the process.

                              Comment

                              • Dave2002
                                Full Member
                                • Dec 2010
                                • 18021

                                #30
                                Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post
                                Your wife will be happy because you eliminated about 3 boxes in the process.
                                .. or less happy because I added another one!

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