DSD: Any Takers?

[Dave2002]

This comes up periodically but I still am confused. If cali's friend had burned the cd and mailed it to him, that isn't illegal...but sending him the track over the internet is....?

Actually in the UK burning a CD and mailing it is illegal, unless the original CD is destroyed. However, it would not be illegal to send the original CD - for example as a loan - which might then subsequently be returned back to the sender, or not! If the receiver copied the CD that would also be illegal, unless it was sent as a gift or purchase.

The law may be different in the US, though I think the circumstances I've mentioned still apply there. Copying is usually allowed only for backup purposes, or for personal use - such as a copy for use in a car or an iPad/iPod. I'm not sure what the state of play is in the UK at present re copying - as I think the law may have been amended in the last year or two. The US and perhaps also Canada, make some things explicit, whereas the UK works on the principle that anything is allowed which hasn't actually been proscribed. I feel that there was a recent change in the UK to make explicit that copying for personal use purposes is legal, but the emphasis is on personal use.

[Nick Armstrong]

Hope you have a "million dollars" when you have to represent yourself in court for being in possession of stolen goods
I thought file sharing of commercial products was (maybe technically ?) illegal

If it's from that time I'm sure if you sent us the players list Hornspeiler would be able to get in touch with some of them for you so you can give them their money

I think copying of one single small part of a massive box which is unavailable and £500 second hand benefits from the "fair dealing" defence for purely private research and study (and enjoyment!)

[PJPJ]

I have read claims that DSD downloads sound better than SACD because there is less jitter when the bits are read from a hard drive versus being pulled from a spinning disc. Again, I was just wondering if anyone here has actually tried the technology and has an opinion.

Well, it's very difficult to substantiate claims like that when any difference may be down purely to the difference in hardware. I can hear little if any difference between a DSD recording and it's conversion to 24/88 PCM. The DSD file lovers seem to me to be trying to re-create the feeling they had in the 60s and 70s playing vinyl, which is why, given a disc choice, they prefer the SACD over the BD-Audio, as the high frequency DSD noise adds a warmth and fuzzy feeling (which some refer to as coloration) compared with the more transparent PCM based BD. I judge each on its own merits and in a good deal of listening cannot come to a blanket opinion on the relative merits of either.

Have you compared any 2L double disc recordings on your Oppo - those which supply the SACD and the BD? Have you downloaded sample free files from 2L or Channel?

I do have a number of DSD files of different provenance - the sound quality depends on recording method and playback equipment. I have heard harsh DSD recordings which seem to me sound worse than another recording of the same music on CD. I have heard PCM recordings which sound so smooth with no digital sheen that I assumed they were DSD.

I understand some DACs with both PCM and DSD capability will do a better job with one than the other. So yes, I have tried the technology and find no difference between file and disc which could not be put down to difference in hardware. As I prefer the surround sound option, the disc, whether SACD or BD is far more appealing to me, for both convenience and cost.

I do have a sizeable collection of hi-res downloads acquired reluctantly. I find the network technology a pain in the arse and the pricing for downloading in many cases quite extortionate.

PS

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f13-audiophile-downloads/free-direct-stream-digital-downloads-oppo-18409/

The same site will help you update your player to its latest firmware.

PPS Perhaps it has it already in which case this page may be useful - it's the one to which the above link links:

http://oppodigital.com/hra/dsd-by-davidelias.aspx

Scroll down to "Configure Your OPPO Player for DSF Playback and DSD Output"

[MrGongGong]

I think copying of one single small part of a massive box which is unavailable and £500 second hand benefits from the "fair dealing" defence for purely private research and study (and enjoyment!)

I'm not sure that "availability" has anything to do with it?
La Monte Young can probably afford better lawyers that most of us (unless you are offering?) and his music is notoriously difficult to get hold of.

[Dave2002]

I found the videos on this site interesting - http://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml

There's a lot of sense in them, and I also liked watching the HP signal generator - I used to have a lab with one of those - lovely. If they're really so cheap now on eBay maybe I should look out for one.

The basic site is also worth looking at - http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

Technical factors can certainly make a difference, but as resolution in terms of sampling frequency and bit depth increases it becomes harder to know whether any possible perceived difference is due to the data, or "simply" due to the hardware (and software) implementation.

I recommend watching the video and then re-appraising your views on "high quality" audio.

One thing which I noted years ago is that if small amounts of (almost inaudible) noise are mixed in with audio, then the apparent volume goes down. This makes sense in terms of psycho acoustics, as it is believed that the brain/ear establishes volume level in terms of levels above the noise floor - even if the noise floor itself is almost imperceptible. It's not immediately obvious that this will happen, but I believe it does.

[johnb]

Dave, thanks for the links. The xiph video was very good (I haven't looked at the other link yet).

Part of the video deals with dither, which reminded me of some experiments I did some time ago, partly out of curiosity and partly to inform a discussion elsewhere. I think the examples are complementary to the video.

Should anyone be interested this is what I did:

I used 60 seconds of a 16 bit file and converted it to 8 bit as this makes the various effects much, much more dramatic.

1) This is 60 seconds of music (Bream & Williams) with 16 bit depth that fades to silence.

https://app.box.com/s/lopy6vu2xw3gsle9q371

2) This is the same 60 sec file converted to 8 bit without adding any dither. Note the alarming distortion (presumably quantization error?) which gets much worse as the music fades to silence, totally breaking up when there no longer any bits left to represent the music.

https://app.box.com/s/yt63fr4aj77c1saeamb6

3) This is the original file converted to 8 bit with simple 1 bit dither added. The distortion has gone and the music no longer breaks up as it fades to silence but noise has been added.

https://app.box.com/s/2y2d2vq9v6m0s0v0duuc

4) This is the original file converted to 8 bit with noise shaped dither added. This pushes the dither towards 22.05kHz (the file has 44.1kHz sampling rate), minimizing the audible effects.

https://app.box.com/s/xz2xj5gnoaj776zvq4x0

5) In the above examples 1 bit dither is added to an 8 bit file as it makes the effect very obvious - but this is not representative of the effect of dither on a 16 bit file, which is at the margins of audibility. The following example is of 1 bit simple dither added to complete silence in a 16 bit file.

https://app.box.com/s/wlbslwt54h5vjx66nq6x

(All the audio editing, etc was done with Sound Forge Pro 10.)

[Bryn]

I'm not sure that "availability" has anything to do with it?
La Monte Young can probably afford better lawyers that most of us (unless you are offering?) and his music is notoriously difficult to get hold of.

Really? A lot of it is sort of easier to DIY, I suppose. (B) + (F#)

[MrGongGong]

Really? A lot of it is sort of easier to DIY, I suppose. (B) + (F#)

Do you want to go 50:50 on a bale of hay ?

[Bryn]

Do you want to go 50:50 on a bale of hay ?

You provide the piano, I'll bring the hay.

Meanwhile there's:

[MrGongGong]

You provide the piano, I'll bring the hay.

Meanwhile there's:

A frequent thing in this house
Shame I can't afford the CDs

(that's a terrible quality rip, there's a better set in multiple clips somewhere)

[Bryn]

A frequent thing in this house
Shame I can't afford the CDs

(that's a terrible quality rip, there's a better set in multiple clips somewhere)

Indeed, but these boards only permit one video per message.

[Dave2002]

johnb

re msg 36, the second example sounds pretty bad, but it doesn't sound bad in the way I would expect. I wonder if there's an interaction with the mp3 encoding. If the same process is done to produce a wav file do you get similar audible results?

[Sydney Grew]

. . . struggling composers and musicians do [really need the money]......

If they are "struggling" it is only because they have willingly made themselves the pawns and slaves of voracious and insatiable capitalists. Either that or their music is rubbish. Or both.

[richardfinegold]

Well, it's very difficult to substantiate claims like that when any difference may be down purely to the difference in hardware. I can hear little if any difference between a DSD recording and it's conversion to 24/88 PCM. The DSD file lovers seem to me to be trying to re-create the feeling they had in the 60s and 70s playing vinyl, which is why, given a disc choice, they prefer the SACD over the BD-Audio, as the high frequency DSD noise adds a warmth and fuzzy feeling (which some refer to as coloration) compared with the more transparent PCM based BD. I judge each on its own merits and in a good deal of listening cannot come to a blanket opinion on the relative merits of either.
Have you compared any 2L double disc recordings on your Oppo - those which supply the SACD and the BD? Have you downloaded sample free files from 2L or Channel?

I do have a number of DSD files of different provenance - the sound quality depends on recording method and playback equipment. I have heard harsh DSD recordings which seem to me sound worse than another recording of the same music on CD. I have heard PCM recordings which sound so smooth with no digital sheen that I assumed they were DSD.

I understand some DACs with both PCM and DSD capability will do a better job with one than the other. So yes, I have tried the technology and find no difference between file and disc which could not be put down to difference in hardware. As I prefer the surround sound option, the disc, whether SACD or BD is far more appealing to me, for both convenience and cost.

I do have a sizeable collection of hi-res downloads acquired reluctantly. I find the network technology a pain in the arse and the pricing for downloading in many cases quite extortionate.

PS

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f13-audiophile-downloads/free-direct-stream-digital-downloads-oppo-18409/

The same site will help you update your player to its latest firmware.

PPS Perhaps it has it already in which case this page may be useful - it's the one to which the above link links:

http://oppodigital.com/hra/dsd-by-davidelias.aspx

Scroll down to "Configure Your OPPO Player for DSF Playback and DSD Output"

Thank you very much. I was hoping to find someone with your expeirnece with DSD and SACD, and I greatly appreciate the links that you have supplied for the Oppo.
I have the 2L recording of the Mozart Violin Concertos in both Blu Ray and High Res (PCM) download. Now that I have my firewire dac I shall have to compare the two. Previously I was using the Oppo as my dac, and it wasn't a fair comparison (versus the Blu ray as played on the Oppo) because the usb on the Oppo is clearly inferior to all of it's other inputs.
I will probably wait a couple of years to really explore the DSD experience, when the price of DACs andthe downloads themselves comes to the levels that mere mortals find acceptable. Unless, of course, the format dissapears completely by that time for lack of interest, which is what I think is the more likely outcome.
Right now I'm enjoying the output from my Mac Air to the firewire input of my DAC. It's doing wonders for DAvid Zinman and the Zurich Tonalle recording of Beethoven's 9th, a recording which routinely get's excoriated by other forumites. Who knew that the playing had so much character, even at Zinman's breakneck speeds? Firewire rules!

[MrGongGong]

If they are "struggling" it is only because they have willingly made themselves the pawns and slaves of voracious and insatiable capitalists. Either that or their music is rubbish. Or both.

Yeah right on Sid
just like Vivaldi and Mozart you mean ?