Linux versions - Mint, Ubuntu - whatever ....

[Dave2002]

Since I have an almost free PC and since one of our old ones has more or less ground to a halt, I thought to boot up the spare one yesterday.
I had already done this once last year, to check it worked. As it comes, it has Vista installed, and I found yesterday after playing around a bit, that it might be non trivial to get it up to spec, and perhaps even to update it to Windows 7 or 8, and install appropriate office software. I really don't want to have to spend much getting it to work, though it does seem fast enough.

I then decided to try out a Linux Live CD - in this case for Mint. Previously I had tried Ubuntu.

Today I committed further, and reformatted a spare USB external drive to boot up into Mint. Although it works OK, and I'm typing this now via Mint I am wondering if others might find the standard Ubuntu interface less confusing.

There are a few simple "gotchas" - one of which is trying to find out how to turn the machine off. OK - when you know how - go to the Menu, and select the "button" which looks a bit like a power switch, but why this isn't on the desktop or on the bar at the botom of the screen or even on a context menu is not at first sight obvious.

It looks as though it's not too difficult to configure Mint to make it work as wanted, but presumably the same is also true of Ubuntu.

Have many others around here experimented this way? Other users in my house will probably not want to play around, but might simply like to have working systems which allows them to do all the basic simple things most users seem to want these days.

I certainly do want to avoid putting money into Microsoft's bank account if I can avoid it, and I don't think that should be necessary.

[Frances_iom]

Mint is usually thought of as the nearest to a 'classic' XP like desk top - move an application 'widgit' to task bar to give easy access to commonly used tasks (eg I generally have off, brightness (some laptops start up minimum setting), a terminal (for CLI - the most useful feature in any Linux system) the find icon, terminal settings (often I use multiterminals) + a few more

[Dave2002]

Oddly it seems that Mint is supposed to be the easier one, but Ubuntu after the event seems to be the preferred one - http://lifehacker.com/5993297/ubuntu...-for-beginners
I'm inclined to install Ubuntu as well on the hard drive which is currently used for boot up.

[Quarky]

I'm roughly in there same position as you Dave2002, but some months down the line.

An initial bout of enthusiasm and installed Mint, Ubuntu and Antix on a Vista Laptop and onto a portable hard disk. Then I was side tracked with work. However I have continued to use Mint on the laptop downstairs (didn't feel at home with Ubuntu, Antix an ancient relic).

Mint is preferred to Vista, Windows 7. It switches on and off very quickly, with a minimum of fuss, whereas Vista is forever downloading and installing updates, always at the most inconvenient times. Firefox works excellently, and there is Tor Browser if you wish to remain anonymous. The menu system permits access to programs and utilities more directly than Vista which can be very confusing.

Problems arise for me where I am locked into Windows applications, big ones like MS Outlook, Word, and small ones like some Ham Radio utilities which are usually just written for Windows - so I haven't used much in the way of applications on Mint.

[Frances_iom]

Problems arise for me where I am locked into Windows applications, big ones like MS Outlook, Word, and small ones like some Ham Radio utilities which are usually just written for Windows - so I haven't used much in the way of applications on Mint.

WINE (which comes ready packaged for Mint) runs older versions of MS stuff fine tho libre office is fine for reading + producing docx etc - if you are only using outlook for email then switch to Thunderbird - I suspect that the AMRadio stuff would work under wine unless it has specific hardware interfaces - the more usual problem is hardware especially scanners from Canon (good quality but they refuse to release info for Linux drivers under SANE tho you may be lucky and have a supported model based on other users hacking)

[Pegleg]

It looks as though it's not too difficult to configure Mint to make it work as wanted, but presumably the same is also true of Ubuntu.

As Mint comes in one of several varieties (Mate, Cinnamon,KDE, LMDE,XFCE) it would be helpful to know which you were using. Somehow, I'm not sure you will find Ubuntu less confusing. Ubuntu, like MS, have produced an interface which is meant to be common to phone,tablet and desktop. It's not to everyone's liking.

Oddly it seems that Mint is supposed to be the easier one, but Ubuntu after the event seems to be the preferred one - http://lifehacker.com/5993297/ubuntu...-for-beginners

That article is based on the opinion of "a few friends and family members", and suggests "tech-savvy beginners go with Mint" and for true beginners, it's a draw between Mint and Ubuntu.


Better to see for yourself, and there are plenty of recent vids on youtube which would allow you to compare various Linux desktop paradigms before taking the plunge and installing a particular distro. Alternatively, this website has critical reviews: http://www.dedoimedo.com/computer_software.html

Both of these seemed to be a hit:

http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/linux-mint-petra-mate.html

http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/xubuntu-salamander.html

[Dave2002]

As Mint comes in one of several varieties (Mate, Cinnamon,KDE, LMDE,XFCE) it would be helpful to know which you were using. Somehow, I'm not sure you will find Ubuntu less confusing. Ubuntu, like MS, have produced an interface which is meant to be common to phone,tablet and desktop. It's not to everyone's liking.

Indeed, until yesterday I was pretty much unaware of Mate, Cinnamon, LMDE and XFCE. It seems I'm using Cinnamon - but I had, and still have, little idea what the differences are between them. Thanks for raising this point.

I have used Ubuntu a few times, and for me I thought the interface was slightly easier, but some of that may be due to familiarity.

Personally I don't mind trying several out, but the intention is to use the machine for basic work - and another user has to be able to cope with any of the quirks, and won't want to do systems maintenance or tweaking. We all have experience of Windows and Mac OS X in various flavours. I have no intention of buying another PC to support Windows.

Youtube videos on Linux are, as you suggest, sometimes helpful. One Youtube user out there wants to switch back from Mint to Ubuntu because of a belief that updates are easier and better managed. Allegedly updates in Mint almost amount to a complete install each time.

One (to me) small problem was installing another user in Mint - and I found out how to do it in a few minutes, and the solution suggested worked. I can imagine that others would have found that harder, unless they also tend to use Internet search as a means of solving just about every problem. Looking within the system itself for some features is not always the way to proceed.

Also, using Terminal and command line commands is something which many won't like, or understand. I am not completely into this either, but I do know how to copy and paste something which might work into a Terminal window, and with luck that often works. A certain amount of faith is required, but then there always is a faith requirement with computers and software systems, whether it's pressing an onscreen button, putting some parameters in a fill-in screen when prompted, or inserting an arcane command into a command line.

Thanks for your comments and suggestions.

[Pegleg]

I only have Mint 16 XFCE installed in VirtualBox and it doesn't have a way to add new users until you install an additional package. A definite weak point, and you wouldn't expect new users to know how to do this correctly at the CLI , e.g.:

useradd -m -u 1001 -g 1001 -G lp,users,cdrom,floppy,audio,plugdev,video -s /bin/bash Fred

Not simple, so hence the need for a graphical utility, which at least Cinnamon appears to have "out-of-the-box".

Also, using Terminal and command line commands is something which many won't like, or understand

That comes with time.

Click you middle mouse button/wheel in Linux to paste.

Youtube videos on Linux are, as you suggest, sometimes helpful. One Youtube user out there wants to switch back from Mint to Ubuntu because of a belief that updates are easier and better managed. Allegedly updates in Mint almost amount to a complete install each time.

Are they talking about going from one version of Mint to another, i.e. upgrading say from 15 to 16, or are they talking about the debian based version of Mint? Otherwise I think perhaps the complaint is based on the number and frequency of updates, post-installation. This does vary from one distro to another, and one release to another. Bleeding edge Linux, as the name implies, can mean large and frequent updates, I am not aware the Mint falls into this category.

[Lento]

I do know how to copy and paste something which might work into a Terminal window

I came unstuck on this one: in some distros you have to use Control-Shift-V rather than the usual Control-V in Terminal.

[Pegleg]

The Linux terminal/console is not a text editor, just a as the Windows "cmd" window is not. Type Ctrl+c, and it just returns ^c. The quickest way to copy and paste commands to/from the terminal in Linux is to use your mouse to scroll over what you want to copy, and then click the middle wheel to paste. If your mouse doesn't have a middle button/wheel - buy one. No need to be a slave to the keyboard, unless you're happy to memorize all the key shortcuts etc.

[Dave2002]

I only have Mint 16 XFCE installed in VirtualBox and it doesn't have a way to add new users until you install an additional package. A definite weak point, and you wouldn't expect new users to know how to do this correctly at the CLI , e.g.:

useradd -m -u 1001 -g 1001 -G lp,users,cdrom,floppy,audio,plugdev,video -s /bin/bash Fred

Not simple, so hence the need for a graphical utility, which at least Cinnamon appears to have "out-of-the-box".

That comes with time.

Click you middle mouse button/wheel in Linux to paste.



Are they talking about going from one version of Mint to another, i.e. upgrading say from 15 to 16, or are they talking about the debian based version of Mint? Otherwise I think perhaps the complaint is based on the number and frequency of updates, post-installation. This does vary from one distro to another, and one release to another. Bleeding edge Linux, as the name implies, can mean large and frequent updates, I am not aware the Mint falls into this category.

I managed to get a new user in yesterday with the help of a webpage. One snag is that today I can't find the same page, so anyone else who tries this approach should note that it's a good idea to keep track of all help pages as you go along. My way involved locating some systems tools, then using them - with a GUI - and it worked first off. There are other ways, which I believe might work - such as http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZN5st-bqyo - but that's using the terminal. My way was neater, but as I wrote, I can't find it right now.

I eventually found the select, then middle button way of Copy/Paste, though even now I feel it's a bit iffy - sometimes works. One has to remember not to use any other presses etc. while moving between windows.

Today's challenges - 1 - connecting via a USB wireless adapter, and 2. getting a printer - an old Epson - to work.

Looking at various pages suggested that some wireless adapters don't work, and others will. In the end I simply transferred the adapter from one machine, and it worked pretty much straight off, so no need to mess around, and has now released my ethernet adapter for other purposes.

Re the printer, that took a bit more effort, but after a few fruitless attempts a Gutenprint driver was found and seemingly installed, and the printer is now working. Trying to use package sources for Epson drivers did not work for me. I did find a utility to install the printer, which identified the model correctly, and that did all the work of finding the driver.

Re the suggestion about updating Mint and switching between Mint and Ubuntu, this guy seemed to want to do a switch to Ubuntu, and gave reasons about needing reliability etc. - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg0B6ryk3Us

For my current state of knowledge, I need to know whether it's worth migrating immediately to Mint 16 from 15 - seems not too urgent - and one or two painful glitches have been noted by some users, or whether simply to leave things alone.

I might still try another drive for Ubuntu.

Lastly, and perhaps more important, the suggestion for updates seems to be to do a Fresh install each time - apparently quicker and more reliable - but it would be very useful to make sure that any user data is stored away from the system stuff, so it can be easily backed off and recovered. Are there any guides about this, or does every user have to discover (posssibly the hard way) how to do it, or alternatively what will happen if one doesn't?

This is just so fundamental, yet many systems, including many Windows systems, are supplied with bad configurations, which while workable, do not offer much hope of protection for data in the future unless users take steps themselves. For years I operated with much of my data and programs on Windows C: drives - and my guess is that many others have done this. It's just not the way to do it though - or shouldn't be.

It would make sense to at least try to separate out the space for programs and user data when setting up a system for the first time - leaving some room for expansion, but nevertheless getting a manageable configuration.

[Pegleg]

I managed to get a new user in yesterday with the help of a webpage. One snag is that today I can't find the same page, so anyone else who tries this approach should note that it's a good idea to keep track of all help pages as you go along. My way involved locating some systems tools, then using them - with a GUI - and it worked first off. There are other ways, which I believe might work - such as http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZN5st-bqyo - but that's using the terminal. My way was neater, but as I wrote, I can't find it right now.

Mint Cinnamon 16 - Got to menu, type "user" in the search box, select "users and groups" Is that option available in Mint 15?

Today's challenges - 1 - connecting via a USB wireless adapter, and 2. getting a printer - an old Epson - to work.

Looking at various pages suggested that some wireless adapters don't work, and others will. In the end I simply transferred the adapter from one machine, and it worked pretty much straight off, so no need to mess around, and has now released my ethernet adapter for other purposes.

There's loads of info about Linux, but sorting the chaff from the info wheat can be a problem. Always look to see if it is the latest to aovid unnecessary aganst.

Re the printer, that took a bit more effort, but after a few fruitless attempts a Gutenprint driver was found and seemingly installed, and the printer is now working. Trying to use package sources for Epson drivers did not work for me. I did find a utility to install the printer, which identified the model correctly, and that did all the work of finding the driver.

Printers and scanners can be problematic in Linux as manufacturers do not always release the info on which to build drivers. Mind you, I remember the outcry when Windows 7 first came along with no driver support for many common printers, mine included. Glad to hear you have yours working.

Re the suggestion about updating Mint and switching between Mint and Ubuntu, this guy seemed to want to do a switch to Ubuntu, and gave reasons about needing reliability etc. - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg0B6ryk3Us

I had a look at that, and wouldn't pay too much attention to it.

1. What Mint had been in use? If LMDE, I wouldn't recommend it in the first case.
2. What Ubunut experience had he had?
3. No evidence given to suppprt the claim that upgrading from one realse to another was more reliable in Ubuntu.
4. Stated the obvious re: scheduled release versus rolling release models.

A "rolling release" distro is like Windows 7 with a steady drip of updates and the occasional big one like SP1. So , in theory, you install once and jsut keep updating.

A "scheduled release" distro would be like a Windows OS that neded reinstallation every six months or so with small intermediate updates. Obviously this model requires you pay special attention to your backup strategy. Something everyone who values their data should do on a regular basis, regardless of what OS you use.

For my current state of knowledge, I need to know whether it's worth migrating immediately to Mint 16 from 15 - seems not too urgent - and one or two painful glitches have been noted by some users, or whether simply to leave things alone.

Mint 16 guarantees the latest and greatest software, a new look and under-the-hood improvements. None of which may be critical to you. If you have little personal data to backup and the time to try MINT 16 LiveCD, you may get some benefits by changing.

I might still try another drive for Ubuntu.

As Ubuntu have just released a new Long Term Support (LTS) version - 14.04- it's defintely worth considering. You don't have to stick with the Unity interface. You could choose Xbuntu, Kubuntu or Lubuntu, or simply install Cinnamon or Mate on top of the standard Ubuntu release.

Lastly, and perhaps more important, the suggestion for updates seems to be to do a Fresh install each time - apparently quicker and more reliable - but it would be very useful to make sure that any user data is stored away from the system stuff, so it can be easily backed off and recovered. Are there any guides about this, or does every user have to discover (posssibly the hard way) how to do it, or alternatively what will happen if one doesn't?

This is just so fundamental, yet many systems, including many Windows systems, are supplied with bad configurations, which while workable, do not offer much hope of protection for data in the future unless users take steps themselves. For years I operated with much of my data and programs on Windows C: drives - and my guess is that many others have done this. It's just not the way to do it though - or shouldn't be.

It would make sense to at least try to separate out the space for programs and user data when setting up a system for the first time - leaving some room for expansion, but nevertheless getting a manageable configuration.

The " Linux Filesystem Hierarchy" (described here, for example:https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php...stem_hierarchy) is better than Windows in keeping programs and data separate. Your data is reasonably well isolated under the /home directory. You can of course create data only partitions on your hard drive as you wish. IIRC the standard Mint install puts everything in one partition, so backing up personal data is a case of making copies of data under the /home directory using file orientated backup software. Deja Dup is just one example:

http://youtu.be/G_Mv8zpKT7s

If you had a separate partition for /home you could use partition orientated backup sfotware. But you must first umount the partition in order to do this. This brings us to the other class of backup, taking system images, where an entire system or sub-part of the system is backed up by making copies of one or more partitions. The principles are no different to what you would do in Windows. Mint offers a basic utiilty called "Disks" to create and restore partition images. But as you cannot take an image of a mounted partition, this kind of system backup must be done by using a LiveCD or USB stick, and not directly from the running system. Clonezilla is the Linux swiss army knife of making back ups and images, but it is CLI only and not "user-friendly". Most of this kind of software will create an image in compressed format. To clone Linux from one hard drive to another, or to make a like for like copy of a partition, use Gparted.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

fascinating thread ... i have only dabbled with Ubuntu but found it usable

my main discovery in the open source worls is Libre Office which i find as wonderful as Office 97 ... highly usable with a small learning curve if you grew up on that version of Office

[Pegleg]

I should have used Libre to spell check my last post - must do better.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

My partner's laptop had Vista on it until about 3 months ago when I wiped it completely and installed Mint 16 Mate. She'd used Mint before, mainly when we've been on holiday as I've got an older version on another laptop, so she was used to using it. She seems pretty happy with it, particularly how much quicker it starts and shuts down compared with Vista. I tried Mint Xfce initially but the problem with creating new users made me switch to Mate straight away, rather than mess about with Xfce.

The laptop I'm on now has Ubuntu 13.10 and Windows 7 but I rarely boot into Windows these days. It took a bit of time to get used to Unity but, now I have, I really like it.

Haven't decided whether to upgrade to 14.04 on this machine or to try doing so on the Mint laptop which also runs Ubuntu 12.04 (as well as Korora 20 Cinnamon ie it triple boots). And, as Dave2002 says, it's probably better to do a fresh install instead of upgrading. I always create a separate data partition, even with Windows, and I use PING to create partition images before I do anything major (and as a means of backing up), so it's very easy to revert if an install/upgrade goes wrong. Ubuntu 13.10 is only supported for 9 months so I need to move onto 14.04 fairly soon.