Caliban undergoes a sea change

[cloughie]

Thing is every thing is getting slower in the piano world . I don’t know why - it’s supposed to sound more profound but give me Schnabel really.

Julius Katchen always seemed fine to me!

[Bryn]

Thing is every thing is getting slower in the piano world . . .

Not necessarily a totally reliable rule of thumb. Performances of the through-composed, replete with specified tempo indication, "For Bunita Marcus" on CD range from around 61 minutes (Aki Takahashi in 1989) to Sabine Liebner at around 124 minutes (2005) with various timings between the two, both in the interim and since. In the case of Beethoven, HIPP performances tend to be considerably quicker in tempo than during most of the 20th Century.

[Richard Barrett]

Life, time and music can have many forms and variations of slowness...

I'm not sure what you're getting at there. Of course anyone can play Schubert's "molto moderato" as slowly or as quickly as they damn well please, and desynchronise the hands to their heart's content, not caring what Schubert may have actually meant by that indication. But then why go to the trouble of playing it on an instrument of Schubert's time? There seems to be a basic inconsistency of approach here.

[Bryn]

I'm not sure what you're getting at there. Of course anyone can play Schubert's "molto moderato" as slowly or as quickly as they damn well please, and desynchronise the hands to their heart's content, not caring what Schubert may have actually meant by that indication. But then why go to the trouble of playing it on an instrument of Schubert's time? There seems to be a basic inconsistency of approach here.

The desynchronisation seems particularly inapposite to me, given that Schubert held Beethoven in such high regard and the latter had poked such fun at the passing fashion for desynchronisation of the hands in the opening of his Op. 31/1. The chord-spreading is another matter. Its restoration to the 4th and 5th Beethoven piano concertos in recent times is supposedly based on sound musicological research.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Julius Katchen always seemed fine to me!

Me too - one of the real greats ..

[jayne lee wilson]

I'm not sure what you're getting at there. Of course anyone can play Schubert's "molto moderato" as slowly or as quickly as they damn well please, and desynchronise the hands to their heart's content, not caring what Schubert may have actually meant by that indication. But then why go to the trouble of playing it on an instrument of Schubert's time? There seems to be a basic inconsistency of approach here.

Well, this Graf is from around 1835 - just out of Schubert's mortal time.....

Koch is an obsessive keyboard specialist, in earlier keyboards especially from harpsichord to orphica to organ, but he will also choose modern instruments where he considers it apt.
But of course this isn't just about the vintage of the instrument - even if that is the academic or inspirational starting point. Koch is much more concerned with the sound of the piano itself, and the sounds he can draw from it; and that is what he is exploring in these uniquely challenging recordings.

Those of us who love the early pianos whether Walther, Stein, Erard, Graf or others, don't simply love them because of when they were made or designed; it is much more about how very beautifully and expressively apt their range of colour, dynamic, attack and decay, pedal control is, to given areas of the repertoire. And why shouldn't any composer today write for them, as much as for a Chris Maene Straight Strung Grand?

I've just been listening to some of Koch's Chopin, on an 1832 Pleyel Pianino Upright which Chopin himself composed upon. Fascinating and poignant to consider, yes, but Koch's own improvised preludial passages to the works soon drew me in to purely musical and sonic matters... ....

[Dave2002]

The desynchronisation seems particularly inapposite to me, given that Schubert held Beethoven in such high regard and the latter had poked such fun at the passing fashion for desynchronisation of the hands in the opening of his Op. 31/1. The chord-spreading is another matter. Its restoration to the 4th and 5th Beethoven piano concertos in recent times is supposedly based on sound musicological research.

Is that Beethoven movement an "obvious" joke, or did Beethoven make explicit reference to it in his writings or conversations?
I always did think it was a very strange sonata, though I got to enjoy it in one of Arrau's recordings - which incidentally I think was better than this Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7LXQVxd6xA

[Bryn]

Is that Beethoven movement an "obvious" joke, or did Beethoven make explicit reference to it in his writings or conversations?
I always did think it was a very strange sonata, though I got to enjoy it in one of Arrau's recordings - which incidentally I think was better than this Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7LXQVxd6xA

It's one frequently referred to in commentary as being a sly dig at the fashion. I recall being at a performance by Charles Rosen in the QEH. I went armed with my Lee pocket score and after the performance of Op. 31/1, the fellow audience member to my left, who I did not know, enquired whether the 'split hands' was as written or something Rosen had introduced. I showed him the opening section in confirmation of what Beethoven had written. I do not know whether Beethoven ever spoke or wrote of the rationale for the desynchronisation but it is well established as one of his more slapstick tilts at other pianists', shall we say, manerisms. See, for instance, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_...16_(Beethoven)

[Edgy 2]

I can't really sue Southampton University, or indeed the local grammar school, seeing as my education was free right up to degree level. It's just that I don't want anybody to expect anything particularly profound in the way of musical analysis. I did think of turning into 'Redbrick Thicko', but decided that might be regarded in certain quarters as a tad provocative. Another possibility is 'Able Seaman Just Nuisance' (that's the name of the dog). My feeling for music is basically instinctive, and anything I've learnt has probably been the result of listening repeatedly to favourite works over the years.

Who the devil is your fiend, may I ask?

I feel your pain
I barely went to school (it's a long and uninteresting story),never mind Redbrick Unies.
Somehow I managed to make a more than decent living in a quite responsible job.
Anything I do know has been mostly self taught,music included, so don't expect any deep and meaningful insights in anything I post.
I'm in awe of the knowledge and eloquence of fellow forumites

[Keraulophone]

Beethoven ... had poked such fun at the passing fashion for desynchronisation of the hands in the opening of his Op. 31/1.

What makes the joke even funnier is that LvB writes the even more unlikely and even uglier RH before LH desynchronisation.

[Serial_Apologist]

I feel your pain
I barely went to school (it's a long and uninteresting story),never mind Redbrick Unies.
Somehow I managed to make a more than decent living in a quite responsible job.
Anything I do know has been mostly self taught,music included, so don't expect any deep and meaningful insights in anything I post.
I'm in awe of the knowledge and eloquence of fellow forumites

Oh I think quite a few of us are autodidacts on this forum, Edgy! I am likewise one of those who thinks I have taught myself far more in general since leaving school than when at it - and I never went into further or higher education; well, not until in my late forties, by which time it was all a bit late!! I think we should be proud of ourselves.

[Bryn]

What makes the joke even funnier is that LvB writes the even more unlikely and even uglier RH before LH desynchronisation.

Indeed. That sonata is a great favourite of mine. Where Mozart brings a smile, Beethoven generates a good chuckle, here and elsewhere. All the more admirable in one who suffered such tribulations.

[Serial_Apologist]

Indeed. That sonata is a great favourite of mine. Where Mozart brings a smile, Beethoven generates a good chuckle, here and elsewhere. All the more admirable in one who suffered such tribulations.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I am fortunate in having the volume of all Beethoven's piano sonatas, left to me by my dear departed mum, so might dig that one out to have a go at it.

[Richard Barrett]

Those of us who love the early pianos whether Walther, Stein, Erard, Graf or others, don't simply love them because of when they were made or designed; it is much more about how very beautifully and expressively apt their range of colour, dynamic, attack and decay, pedal control is, to given areas of the repertoire. And why shouldn't any composer today write for them, as much as for a Chris Maene Straight Strung Grand?

Indeed - and if a contemporary composer were to write for fortepiano he/she might indulge their fantasy to the maximum in exploring the said range. And of course there's nothing to stop anyone from recomposing Schubert in order to explore it either. But I'd prefer to hear (or for that matter write) a new piece for fortepiano, or to hear Schubert played with a sense of how Schubert might have imagined hearing it. Schubert sounds new when that kind of understanding is brought to bear on it.

[LMcD]

I really would like to participate in serious discussions of performance technique and other musical matters, and have been known to offer the occasional comment, but I'm afraid it's usually not long before long I feel, once again, out of my depth and inadequate.
I've just listened to my newly purchased recording of Elgar's Piano Quintet with the Sorells and Ian Brown, which on first hearing I found almost too passionate/intense/dramatic, but I've no idea why. Does it have too much attack and decay? Or too little? Or too much of one and not enough of the other? Perhaps a tiny light will dawn as I revisit it in the months and years to come.
(In case anybody thinks I'm being excessively modest, I can claim several years' experience in European patents litigation, so there must be something between my ears )