The new schedule - Saturdays and Sundays

[french frank]

Here's a quote you might like, then, from today's emails:

"R3 is going rapidly downhill and seems bent on abandoning all the special qualities which used to make it our much preferred station. Now increasingly vapid chat shows, mindless quizzes and even more mindless reading out of listeners' names- how boring can you get!- and endless advertising for future programmes as well as endless repetition of how to contact R3- all of this has drastically reduced the amount of time occupied by music.It is just a bitty, disjointed experience which we find ourselves less and less inclined to listen to. Plus severe losses of quality broadcasts- eg the Met LIVE on Sat eves. Disappointing decrease also in the amount of good Jazz and good World Music during daytime hours- why can't these have more slots? We don't all simply record or download- we actually want to listen in real time."

I know I risk losing friends , but I have always felt that if jazz, world music and speech/drama are essential features of Radio 3 (which is the FoR3 line), perhaps a more integrated schedule is called for? The opposite view is the reason for 'stripping' genres, so that listeners are clearer when and where they are going to find their preferred programmes; but it also hardly suits those who work during the day without the possibility of listening to the radio if, by the time they switch on in the evening, the kind of programmes they would like to listen to were on earlier in the day.

It probably is time that Radio 3 Extra made an appearance, with all-day coverage of jazz and world music (and folk?); and Radio 3 was left as the traditional output for classical music (incl. contemporary), spoken arts, documentaries and talks. That is certainly not something I would be pushing for if it meant the other 'featured genres' were without a home.

[Quarky]

Here's a quote you might like, then, from today's emails:

.It is just a bitty, disjointed experience which we find ourselves less and less inclined to listen to. Plus severe losses of quality broadcasts- eg the Met LIVE on Sat eves. Disappointing decrease also in the amount of good Jazz and good World Music during daytime hours- why can't these have more slots? We don't all simply record or download- we actually want to listen in real time."

It probably is time that Radio 3 Extra made an appearance, with all-day coverage of jazz and world music (and folk?); and Radio 3 was left as the traditional output for classical music (incl. contemporary), spoken arts, documentaries and talks. That is certainly not something I would be pushing for if it meant the other 'featured genres' were without a home.

Probably an Extra Radio station would keep the listeners happy - but I don't know whether BBC could justify investing in a new programme. But who knows? Look at Radio 6. It survived the axe, and now has proved a success story.

I guess Radio 6 is a single genre programme (although I can't discern between the various varieties of Rock and Pop). Radio 3 may be at a disadvantage in having to keep various groups of listeners happy. It would be interesting to know whether listeners numbers would increase or decrease if it were dedicated solely to quality Classical music with minimal chat, rather like - is it Klassik Bayern - the Munich station?

But assuming an Extra radio station is not on the cards, I personally am quite happy with listening again on iPlayer to minority interest programmes usually played late at night - Hear and Now, Jazz on 3. If these programmes were broadcast any earlier, they would probably create a ratings slump!

[french frank]

If these programmes were broadcast any earlier, they would probably create a ratings slump!

Not a valid reason for not doing it. They would be available for such listeners as wished to hear them. The idea that because such programmes attract smaller audiences, therefore they must be broadcast at some unattractive time is not a serious one.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Nor me if Radio 3's claim to want to maximise exposure to (perhaps) a minority taste is given any credibility.

Yes, well OK, I admit to sobs and laughter.

What's worse is the "if you liked a bit of that you'll like" this syndrome... Because it comes prepacked just liked Sainsburys Italian dried sausage range. Culture with some effort, who needs it. All those chillies

BN.

[Honoured Guest]

On weekdays, most BBC network radio specialist music programmes are scheduled in the late evenings:

Radio 1 - 12.00 midnight to 2.00am
1Xtra - 10.00pm to 2.00am
Radio 1 & 1Xtra simulcast - 2.00 to 4.00am
Radio 2 - 7.00 to 8.00pm and 10.00pm to 12.00 midnight

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

As my mother always said: "Two wrongs don't make a right."

[french frank]

On weekdays, most BBC network radio specialist music programmes are scheduled in the late evenings:

It's what the commercial stations call "Ratings by day, reputations by night" - a model that the BBC chooses to imitate.

[Honoured Guest]

There's a good daytime mix of music genres in the guest list on In Tune , (and there's very occasionally an evening Live in Concert with an element of jazz).

I wonder whether Radio 3 has considered using the weekday slot immediately before the evening Live in Concert for specialist music series, like Radio 2 does very successfully from 7.00 to 8.00pm with Mon blues, Tue jazz, Wed roots, Thu country, Fri oldies. I guess the problem for Radio 3 is that 6.30 to 7.30pm would be too early for many potential listeners, although these programmes could be repeated in the late evening or at weekends. Another problem would be that these specialist programmes wouldn't deliver an inherited audience to the following Live in Concert.

[french frank]

There are an awful lot of issues that need to be thought through coherently, but two questions need to be considered. The first thing is 'station loyalty', a radio thing which doesn't apply to television. Most people have a 'preferred station' which claims their allegiance, even if they switch occasionally to other stations. Having their station mucked about with in the past caused problems for Radio 1 and Radio 4, as well as Radio 3.

The second point is that, to generalise, people prefer (still) the linear service to the iPlayer (some people don't, but they need to accept that it's still only a very small proportion of radio listening that is done using the catch-up services).

That does seem to suggest (to me) that people want a substantial amount of their listening to be, as far as possible, on 'their' station. Radio 3's remit is much broader and has to accommodate a wider range of programming/tastes than any other. These attract separate audiences with competing demands. I do think it might have been a mistake to introduce an even wider range, which simply attracts more discrete audiences. This was done solely to achieve a bigger audience for Radio 3, but it has created more problems.

[Old Grumpy]

There's a good daytime mix of music genres in the guest list on In Tune , (and there's very occasionally an evening Live in Concert with an element of jazz).

I wonder whether Radio 3 has considered using the weekday slot immediately before the evening Live in Concert for specialist music series, like Radio 2 does very successfully from 7.00 to 8.00pm with Mon blues, Tue jazz, Wed roots, Thu country, Fri oldies. I guess the problem for Radio 3 is that 6.30 to 7.30pm would be too early for many potential listeners, although these programmes could be repeated in the late evening or at weekends. Another problem would be that these specialist programmes wouldn't deliver an inherited audience to the following Live in Concert.

Perhaps not a bad idea. I have never really understood why Composer of the Week has two identical slots on the same day in this digital age. I am as keen as any on these boards to listen "in real time", but I do appreciate that there are conflicting interests among R3's broad church of listeners.

Radio 3 Extra is perhaps not a bad idea - post full DAB roll out.

OG (Strictly FM or i-player) due to topographic considerations

[Honoured Guest]

Station loyalty - Radio 1 should be in permanent metamorphosis as it strives to address young people and should not seek the loyalty of ageing audiences.

Linear service - Yes, Radio 3 is definitely scheduled this way now!

Range of programming - I thought the more common criticism was that Radio 3's remit has narrowed, or at least that its output has been homogenised into a schedule of regular blocks.

[aeolium]

The first thing is 'station loyalty', a radio thing which doesn't apply to television. Most people have a 'preferred station' which claims their allegiance, even if they switch occasionally to other stations. Having their station mucked about with in the past caused problems for Radio 1 and Radio 4, as well as Radio 3.

I'm really not sure that this is true and I'm not sure how statistics could back up the statement that most people have a preferred station and only switch occasionally to other stations. I think it highly likely that many people listen to several stations (and there is increasing interest in internet stations from other countries). I'd be surprised if many R3 listeners did not listen to R4 quite a lot for instance (I mean at least once a day) and those interested in sport may well listen to R5 from time to time - and the old R3 did after all provide sports coverage. And there's also R4X which may be of interest.

What is much more important to people than any station loyalty - and I think this applies to radio as much as to TV - is the quality of the content. If there is interesting and high quality content on a particular station people will listen to it, no matter what the station is. If R3 increasingly ceases to provide that content then people will turn elsewhere. The quality of spoken arts provision on R3 has been declining for decades so anyone interested in this content has to look elsewhere. In this area I have lost any sense of loyalty to R3 as I think it has been betrayed and I haven't the slightest confidence that the quality of its content will improve.

The second point is that, to generalise, people prefer (still) the linear service to the iPlayer (some people don't, but they need to accept that it's still only a very small proportion of radio listening that is done using the catch-up services).

Yes, that remains true, but I think it will steadily change as technology improves. There remains the strong pull of the live (live-as-live) concert or opera broadcast but it's the case on R3 that more and more of its output is recorded, deferred live broadcasts or spliced up concerts. If that is the case and it becomes as easy on a radio to select last week's broadcast as the current one what is the especial value of hearing last month's concert now compared with in a few days' time? I can't see any. If the quality of broadcast on iplayer (or whatever replay system a station uses) is identical to the linear broadcast, and it is as easy to use, then the unique value of linear broadcasting would seem to me to be the really live broadcast - and then only if the listener places a high value on hearing the concert/opera at the same time as it is being played (I don't particularly).

Linear broadcasting will remain important for those programmes where the live and current aspect is highly valued, live music, sports, news but for everything else I think on-demand listening will become at least as popular and possibly more.

[french frank]

I'm really not sure that this is true and I'm not sure how statistics could back up the statement that most people have a preferred station and only switch occasionally to other stations.

It is BBC wisdom, and is discussed by a radio critic here. It doesn't mean that they don't sometimes - even often - listen to another station (75% of Radio 3 listeners listen to Radio 4 and 45% listen to Classic FM). That doesn't alter the basic premise that they can and do favour one over the other. When the Trust described Radio 3 listeners as 'effectively a subset of the Radio 4 audience', they disregarded the solus listeners - those who never listen to any station but Radio 3 (c 100,000), and they didn't differentiate between the 'occasional Radio 3' listeners and 'occasional Radio 4 listeners', those who switch stations mainly because there is one particular programme they want to hear.

I don't have any information as to how many radio listeners regularly tune in to foreign stations via the internet: Radio 3 listeners might, but that appears to be for reasons we know - where 'station loyalty' no longer applies.

What is much more important to people than any station loyalty - and I think this applies to radio as much as to TV - is the quality of the content. If there is interesting and high quality content on a particular station people will listen to it, no matter what the station is. If R3 increasingly ceases to provide that content then people will turn elsewhere. The quality of spoken arts provision on R3 has been declining for decades so anyone interested in this content has to look elsewhere. In this area I have lost any sense of loyalty to R3 as I think it has been betrayed and I haven't the slightest confidence that the quality of its content will improve.

Not sure I agree that many people except radio critics go dashing all over the place to select quality programmes. And with Radio 3 we have a special case: I was once described by the Controller of Radio 3 to one of the Governors (slightly jocularly, I'm sure) as "Radio 3's most loyal listener". I don't bother listening at all now, if I can help it. Loyalty isn't unconditional.

Linear broadcasting will remain important for those programmes where the live and current aspect is highly valued, live music, sports, news but for everything else I think on-demand listening will become at least as popular and possibly more.

Autres temps, autres mœurs. It has a very long way to go.

[aeolium]

It is BBC wisdom, and is discussed by a radio critic here. It doesn't mean that they don't sometimes - even often - listen to another station (75% of Radio 3 listeners listen to Radio 4 and 45% listen to Classic FM).

Well, I'm not sure about "BBC wisdom" but even those statistics hardly support an assertion that listeners "only switch occasionally to other stations". I don't agree with the Trust comment either but I don't know anyone who listens almost exclusively to just one station. Perhaps that sort of loyalty was present long ago but I'd be surprised if it was still generally the case.

Not sure I agree that many people except radio critics go dashing all over the place to select quality programmes. And with Radio 3 we have a special case: I was once described by the Controller of Radio 3 to one of the Governors (slightly jocularly, I'm sure) as "Radio 3's most loyal listener". I don't bother listening at all now, if I can help it. Loyalty isn't unconditional.

I think the point is that if you don't make an effort to look around for quality programmes and keep hoping against hope that they will turn up on your "preferred" station then you're very likely to be disappointed, perhaps even ending up with a "preferred" station which you hardly ever listen to. That's certainly one reason behind the interest in internet stations as evinced on another thread, and I don't think one should assume that it is an exceptional interest, any more than one should assume the discontent with R3 programming here is exceptional.

As to iplayer listening, I think the majority of my radio listening now (certainly my R3 listening, which like yours has reduced considerably in recent years) is on iplayer - sometimes as a result of threads here about programmes that have already been broadcast on R3 or R4.

[french frank]

I don't know anyone who listens almost exclusively to just one station

Yes, you do

I think the point is that if you don't make an effort to look around for quality programmes and keep hoping against hope that they will turn up on your "preferred" station then you're very likely to be disappointed, perhaps even ending up with a "preferred" station which you hardly ever listen to.

I suspect both of us judge by our own listening habits.

I gave up televison quite easily, and am totally indifferent to the fact that I 'miss' absolutely superb programmes. I do other things that I enjoy instead. Radio has *almost* gone the same way - and the listening I do is on the iPlayer - 45 minutes this week; well, 90, because I listened to it twice.