Trust review published

[Andrew Slater]

Just noticed that yesterday's Feedback dealt with the report (I haven't listened, yet).

[french frank]

Just noticed that yesterday's Feedback dealt with the report (I haven't listened, yet).

Hardly said anything - it was Nick Prettejohn - who I saw. He talked about R3 listeners being 'passionate' but wasn't to be drawn on R3.

I'm just studying the Trust's supporting evidence. The online consultation attracted fewer than 3,000 replies (I seem to remember it was about 18,000 for the 347 review) - for ALL the music stations. Anything between 340 and 1500 answered any single question about R3.

D'uh - just found:

Q35 (No of responses 1,719). Thinking of all these radio services together – Radio 1, 1Xtra, Radio 2, Radio 3, 6Music and Asian Network – are they any types of music that you would like to hear more of on BBC Radio?

"When respondents are asked which types of music they would like to hear more of across BBC Music Radio, Classical is the most frequently mentioned genre, followed by Rock, Indie and Jazz. The genres requested are, in order of most to least wanted:

● Classical
● Rock
● Indie
● Jazz
● Folk
● Singer/Songwriter
● Pop
● Country
● R&B / Urban / Hip-Hop
● World Music

(I mean about classical, of course)

[aeolium]

In support of Globaltruth though, it could be argued that those interested in world music may not be the kind of people terribly interested in responding to survey questions from the BBC Trust. And whether or not classical music is more popular, in a survey of that kind, does not justify the marginalisation of world music, which already has very little exposure on R3 and AFAIK has very little elsewhere across the BBC spectrum. The principle of supporting what is more popular (albeit in a survey) to the exclusion of minority tastes is not one to be encouraged, is it?

[Honoured Guest]

To me it seems far more disappointing that 'World Music' seems to have virtually supplanted non-western classical and folk traditions in favour of contemporary/fusion, mainly singing (as far as I could hear). Lucy Duran's programme seemed the nearest to producing what Radio 3 used to broadcast.

This comment seems similar to some on the current thread on jazz programming: http://www.for3.org/forums/showthrea...-one-listening
The distinctiveness of Radio 3 music programming of all genres is its basis on live music and new and recent recordings. But the roots of this contemporary musicmaking are also explored, for example in conversation with the session artists or in playing historic tracks which show the roots and influences of today's featured music. Budget cuts mean that the featured live music now tends to focus on UK-based artists and international artists visiting the UK, with far fewer field trips to the rest of the world than in the past. But in the world today, almost no one exists in splendid isolation and everyone has global roots and influences which can be explored.

[french frank]

In support of Globaltruth though, it could be argued that those interested in world music may not be the kind of people terribly interested in responding to survey questions from the BBC Trust. And whether or not classical music is more popular, in a survey of that kind, does not justify the marginalisation of world music, which already has very little exposure on R3 and AFAIK has very little elsewhere across the BBC spectrum. The principle of supporting what is more popular (albeit in a survey) to the exclusion of minority tastes is not one to be encouraged, is it?

That was the point of the parentheticlal comment at the end! It wasn't a Hurrah about world music. Should point out that this wasn't the view of Radio 3 listeners, but of all listeners - and, we had this piece from 2008/09ish about world some years back. I think it is more true now that World Routes has gone.

NB The links are rubbish - either updated by others or in the Sunday Times/inaccessible.

But the 'classical comes top' - does have to be glossed. I'm explaining why ...

[aeolium]

That was the point of the parentheticlal comment at the end! It wasn't a Hurrah about world music. Should point out that this wasn't the view of Radio 3 listeners, but of all listeners - and, we had this piece from 2008/09ish about world some years back. I think it is more true now that World Routes has gone.

Fair enough. For my part, I don't want there to be more classical music played on R3. I think there is already too much, but the problem is that it is often badly presented and too much of it is the same repertoire repeated again and again. I'd like the classical music to be more varied and seriously presented, and I'd like more of the spoken arts, more jazz, more world music (definitely World Routes back), and more contemporary music - and that isn't for the most part anything to do with my tastes, apart from my interest in radio drama, but because I think that's what an arts-based radio station should be doing. Unfortunately, I think most R3 listeners would disagree with me, and quite a few would like wall-to-wall classical. That's part of the problem with surveys.

[french frank]

Fair enough. For my part, I don't want there to be more classical music played on R3.

I took it to be more classical on BBC Radio - not on Radio 3. In particular, Radio 2 listeners were said to have an 'appetite' for more classical. To me that means an update Your 100 Best Tunes which can familiarise people with the genre on their 'home ground'.

[Honoured Guest]

From the detail of the Public consultation report response to Q35:

"Radio 3 listeners would often like to hear more Classical music on BBC Radio Music stations."

"Radio 2 listeners would often like to hear more Rock music on BBC Radio Music network. There is also an appetite for more Indie, Jazz, Folk and Classical."

"Asian Network listeners tend to say they would like to hear more Folk and Jazz music, while some mention Rock, Indie and Classical genres."

Radio 1, 1Xtra and 6Music listeners don't much mention that they would like to hear more Classical music on BBC Radio.

So, for Classical music to have topped this survey summary, there must have been a disproportionately high number of Radio 3 listener respondents, mostly wanting their preferred music genre plastered all over the BBC music radio network! This has skewed the sample and doesn't really mean anything!

The meaningful survey outcome, in my opinion, is that a significant number of Radio 2 listener respondents have an appetite for more Classical Music on BBC Radio.

[Honoured Guest]

I took it to be more classical on BBC Radio - not on Radio 3. In particular, Radio 2 listeners were said to have an 'appetite' for more classical. To me that means an update Your 100 Best Tunes which can familiarise people with the genre on their 'home ground'.

Yes, I think this is indeed what it means. The survey has provided evidence of an appetite amongst Radio 2 listeners for more classical music on the BBC Radio network, by which they mainly mean on Radio 2, because that's what they listen to!

Whereas the Radio 3 listeners were firmly saying that they wanted more Classical music on BBC Radio outside Radio 3. Do you think that they meant that they wanted to listen to it themselves on Radio 2 or BBC Local Radio, etc? Or do you think that they wanted to impose it on the listeners of other stations?

EDIT: Having now read aeolium's post above, I've reconsidered and now think it quite possible that some of the Radio 3 respondents may well have meant that they wanted more Classical music on Radio 3 - probably on weekdays from 10.00pm to 12.30am and on Saturdays from 4.00 to 6.30pm ...

[french frank]

The meaningful survey outcome, in my opinion, is that a significant number of Radio 2 listener respondents have an appetite for more Classical Music on BBC Radio.

And that is precisely the point we have been making for years - that Radio 2 has axed its 'soft classical' which could be alongside its 'soft jazz', for people who will have a casual rather than a specialist interest. A programme or two on Radio 2 is no threat to CFM, in the way that a determined strategy to attract 'people with little knowledge of classical music' to Radio 3 IS a threat.

Yes, I'm doing the maths. As one might expect Radio 3 and 6 Music listeners were keen to respond, particularly Radio 3 listeners.

But as the BBC Trust specifically said in 2011 - it isn't the sole responsibility of Radio 3 to deliver classical music to ALL audiences - the services with bigger audiences were better placed to do so. That means Radio 2 - at least with ONE regular programme, surely?

[aeolium]

EDIT: Having now read aeolium's post above, I've reconsidered and now think it quite possible that some of the Radio 3 respondents may well have meant that they wanted more Classical music on Radio 3 - probably on weekdays from 10.00pm to 12.30am and on Saturdays from 4.00 to 6.30pm ...

I haven't read all the public consultation report, but if the only opportunity R3 listeners had to indicate that they wanted more classical music on R3 was that Q35 about more classical music across the radio stations, then presumably they would have answered that question accordingly, which may be giving a misleading impression that they want more classical music across the network.

[Honoured Guest]

But as the BBC Trust specifically said in 2011 - it isn't the sole responsibility of Radio 3 to deliver classical music to ALL audiences - the services with bigger audiences were better placed to do so. That means Radio 2 - at least with ONE regular programme, surely?

Radio 2's Friday Night is Music Night is heavily reliant on the BBC Concert Orchestra and some of the concerts feature classical music.

Radio 2 broadcasts a number of short-running series for various music genres, for example, Nitin Sawhney Spins the Globe is currently exploring world music for four consecutive Mondays 10.00 to 11.00pm. I'm not sure if a short classical music series pops up in an equivalent format from time to time, but it certainly should do! All these specialist programmes are prominently trailed on daytime Radio 2, so the regular Radio 2 listeners are made aware of them.

[french frank]

The other point to notice - I think I've mentioned it - is how small the participation was this time. 16,000 for 347, fewer than 3,000 for the six music stations.

Young people tend not to participate in anything (including elections!): I remember being told that they were very unreliable about filling in their RAJAR listening diaries.

There was quite strong evidence that Radio 3 listeners were happy with a range of music, including jazz. Our survey which was specifically about the classical output still had people saying how much they appreciated the jazz. That's always been the case. They outnumber those who don't want it.

This seems to be the main reference in the Trust review:

"In our research, listeners were positive about Radio 3’s wide variety of music. It was commended for going beyond classical, opera and contemporary music to include jazz and world music. Listeners feel this output makes it distinct from Classic FM. Some listeners responding to the public consultation did not support Radio 3 offering jazz music; however, many appreciated it. "

[french frank]

Radio 2's Friday Night is Music Night is heavily reliant on the BBC Concert Orchestra and some of the concerts feature classical music.

I checked that. Not in my book it doesn't. It seems usually to be heavily reliant on music theatre and film music. Just because it has an orchestra doesn't make it 'classical' by the standards of enthusiasts.

Even BBC Four, which at least has a somewhat bigger audience than Radio 3, tends to favour documentaries which may be of great interest to people who are already interested but isn't the same as playing the music.

[Honoured Guest]

usually to be heavily reliant on music theatre and film music.

I think you meant to type "musical theatre"! "Music theatre" is Peter Maxwell Davies, Harrison Birtwistle, etc.!