Review of Radio 3

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Total Immersion events: forgive me if I am mistaken but when I last looked at one that I was interested in I got the impression that, rather than the concerts being broadcast whole, they were chopped up and the odd piece or two inserted into the daily Afternoon programmes spread over a week or two. If R3 are going to promote Total Immersion events (and I am certainly not against that) at least they should have the courage of their convictions and broadcast the concerts whole, rather than slipping odd pieces into the afternoon programmes, as if they hope that nobody will notice them.

You are not mistaken - this "chopping and changing" of concert programmes in broadcasts is something I really object to. When artists have taken the trouble to put together works that they have chosen to balance and complement each other, it is outrageous that some spotty bean counter should decide he (and I'm sure it is a "he") knows better.

[aeolium]

Can we just clarify what we mean by "Total Immersion", which I understand to mean those weekends at the South Bank where the work of a single living composer is showcased through concerts and talks; the concerts recorded by the Beeb and broadcast amongst the regular schedules over the next few weeks. I think these are excellent events and the amongst best things that R3 does. (They obviously agree, as they've pulled the plug on them )

What I hope aeolie and Roslyn are referring to are the "Composerthons", where the schedules are suspended whilst every last semiquaver that a single composer wrote is broadcast over a week or more. Gimmicky, desperate and contemptible programming from the imagination-deficit committee.

That's right, ferney - I was referring to the Composerthons. I wouldn't count the series you were referring to in your para 1 as Total Immersion at all - from the R3 point of view - though perhaps that is how they are described at the South Bank.

[VodkaDilc]

You are not mistaken - this "chopping and changing" of concert programmes in broadcasts is something I really object to. When artists have taken the trouble to put together works that they have chosen to balance and complement each other, it is outrageous that some spotty bean counter should decide he (and I'm sure it is a "he") knows better.

I couldn't agree more. In fact I said much the same thing in relation to televised Proms a few days ago:

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?11754-Televised-Proms&p=419072#post419072

[johnb]

You are not mistaken - this "chopping and changing" of concert programmes in broadcasts is something I really object to. When artists have taken the trouble to put together works that they have chosen to balance and complement each other, it is outrageous that some spotty bean counter should decide he (and I'm sure it is a "he") knows better.

One of the joys of R3 used to be the Lunchtime Concerts. No longer, alas.

[french frank]

I think we should bear in mind that it was after the Trust's 2011 review that the evening concerts were restored. We mentioned this several times in our submission, including:

"However, the decision to drop on-site presentation of concerts recorded for later transmission means that though the music is performed in various venues, presentation of the recorded items is always from a studio in London. This completely loses the idea that the concerts have come from around the country. Radio 3 used to have particular presenters associated with the various venues, and who introduced all the concerts whether they were broadcast live or for deferred transmission."

"The negative effect on listeners of the changes to the evening concert (both the earlier start time and the ending of on-site presentation) has, in our view, been seriously underestimated by management. We have tried to discover whether these changes have had an effect on listening figures but the BBC steadfastly refuses to disclose the information."

I'm sure other people made similar points at the time - whether that or a drop in listening brought about the change, who knows?

[Tevot]

One of the joys of R3 used to be the Lunchtime Concerts. No longer, alas.

Hello there,

Can I ask you why?

Best Wishes,

Tevot

[johnb]

Hello there,

Can I ask you why?

Best Wishes,

Tevot

The LTC used to be just that - a broadcast of a chamber concert with a variable finish time (the concerts were usually between 1hr and 1 hr 20 mins).

Now, apart from the Wigmore Hall relays, the LTCs now mostly comprise various pieces picked out from concerts and then re-assembled to fit strict 1 hour time slots.

[Russ]

Bill Matthews, the BBC Trustee in charge of the review, features in a snippet in Feedback (about 15 minutes in).

Russ

[Russ]

This is why many felt let down when they discovered Radio 3's strategy (which is what people complained about) was to continue and before anyone knew anything about it, the Trust presented it as a fait accompli: no consultation, no discussion - and still the detail of the proposals is secret.

I imagine the BBC Executive's input to the current Review will be kept secret as well.

Russ

[DublinJimbo]

On the whole, my view is that R3 programming needs to lose it's strict adherence to a rigid schedule and go back to a more flexible way of broadcasting.

I couldn't agree more.

[french frank]

I imagine the BBC Executive's input to the current Review will be kept secret as well.

Russ

Probably, though I intend to criticise the secrecy over the previous review submission. Last time we were only able to do so AFTER the publication of the Trust's report since we didn't know anything about the management proposals forming part of the consultation.

Thanks for the Feedback vid - will take a look. Add: Mmmm - popularity v. size, catering for all audiences: not new but we need to query how well 'all' audiences are being catered for. Maybe the present Trust team will understand that 'playing classical music' is too vague a concept to be considered 'catering for the classical music audience'. It's rather like saying Radio 1 'plays pop music' so Radio 1Xtra, Radio 2, 6 Music and the Asian Network aren't really needed.

[Honoured Guest]

Thanks for the Feedback vid - will take a look. Add: Mmmm - popularity v. size, catering for all audiences: not new but we need to query how well 'all' audiences are being catered for. Maybe the present Trust team will understand that 'playing classical music' is too vague a concept to be considered 'catering for the classical music audience'. It's rather like saying Radio 1 'plays pop music' so Radio 1Xtra, Radio 2, 6 Music and the Asian Network aren't really needed.

Point of information, quoted from the Feedback interview with the BBC Trust reviewer:

"One of the big challenges for us at the BBC, of course, is to try and serve all audiences, and I think it's hugely important that we at the BBC ensure that there's some part of our output that everyone across the UK finds interesting and relevant.

"... that trade-off between popularity and size of audience and distinctiveness."

So, it sounds as if it would be quite worthwhile to argue the case for some specialist classical music programmes targeted specifically at the discerning knowledgeable audience, and some might argue that CD Review and some editions of Live in Concert, for example, already serve these discerning knowledgeable audiences.

It seems to me to be pointless to argue that the majority of Radio 3's classical music programming should be targeted at the discerning knowledgeable audience when there are only six national networks which between them are intended to provide something to suit everyone.

This post presents my genuine view and isn't intended to be provocative for the purpose of mere annoyance.

[PJPJ]

It seems to me to be pointless to argue that the majority of Radio 3's classical music programming should be targeted at the discerning knowledgeable audience.......

I thought the Third Programme's remit was to assist in making the audience more knowledgeable and not solely for the discerning knowledgeable. Have things changed?

[french frank]

So, it sounds as if it would be quite worthwhile to argue the case for some specialist classical music programmes targeted specifically at the discerning knowledgeable audience, and some might argue that CD Review and some editions of Live in Concert, for example, already serve these discerning knowledgeable audiences.

I was writing something slightly on that subject this morning, including Composer of the Week along with CDR and LiC. The Trust was concerned last time about the balance of the scheduling, so it does seem worth pointing out that Breakfast, Essential Classics and In Tune take up 42 hours per week (and peaktime listening at that) whereas the 'specialist' programmes take up 21 hours (CotW counting as 5 pw rather than 10). And even then LiC isn't particularly 'specialist' - it's for anyone who likes classical music, knowledgeable or not. And we haven't counted Saturday Classics and The Choir.

Where I would argue with your point is in dividing the audience into two distinct groups (discerning and 'those with little knowledge'). The Trust tended to see anyone who disliked the populist approach as being an 'expert', the 'musical elite', the 'specialist'. Whereas I suspect the majority of the R3 audience forms a mass that isn't either 'expert' or 'knowing next to nothing'.

If there are two distinct groups it's those who don't know much about classical music and who just want a somewhat less repetitious Classic FM playlist as vague background music and those who, regardless of their knowledge base, take the music more seriously. Rather than being treated as at some sort of extreme, they surely should be treated as the R3 MOR?

Personally, I think that Radio 2's schedule and the size of its current reach is diabolical. It could afford to lose a million or two listeners by renewing the light orchestral programmmes. But the BBC loves the fact that it's the largest radio station in the UK.

PS. I think I've covered PJPJ's point?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Also not intended to provoke or annoy, but I don't see in what way it might be argued that the "discerning, knowledgeable audience" is being (specifically) targetted by CD Review or Live in Concert.