Whither the Proms?

[LMcD]

I see there was nothing here about the latest Rajar figures. I've got tired of saying "Another duff set of figures this quarter"(1.833m reach). The BBC (and Radio 3) seem totally bereft of any personnel with genuine critical and analytical faculties (or perhaps they just come up with the "wrong answers" for today's BBC?). Marketing, market research and focus group rule, OK? Deep gloom.

I hadn't seen the latest RAJAR figures - Q2 2024 down 8.1% on Q1 2024? Hardly a ringing endorsement of young Jackson's 'refresh'.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I hadn't seen the latest RAJAR figures - Q2 2024 down 8.1% on Q1 2024? Hardly a ringing endorsement of young Jackson's 'refresh'.

Yes but reach up on Q2 2023 and TSSA slightly up also. Listening tends to be heavier in the winter months - it it’s all within noise level to be honest.

Just been back through the last ten years of Q2 and the figures are pretty unchanging unlike the other BBC networks who have lost share . Controllers don’t have much impact to be honest. The whole commission and schedule model which puts so much power in the hands of one person is a broken one - a monumental waste of your money folks. Frankly you could axe the whole lot and spend the money on more producers and musicians.*

* and the same goes for TV with knobs on.

[french frank]

Yes but reach up on Q2 2023 and TSSA slightly up also. Listening tends to be heavier in the winter months - it it’s all within noise level to be honest.

Depends what you call 'noise level'. If R2 loses 500k it hardly registers; if R3 loses 500k that's 25+%. Excluding 2020 and 2021 where data wasn't collected because of Covid, we have:

2023 1.703m
2022 2.022m
2019 2.028m
2018 1.908m
2017 2.062m
2016 2.201m

So, yes, last quarter's reach was up on last year, but last year's was dire so it's some improvement on dire but still some way off the "Radio 3's reach is around 2m" which has been the BBC mantra.

Controllers don’t have much impact to be honest.

!!!!! While Sam Jackson shrugs off the 'R3 is dumbing down' criticism, on the grounds that it's been levelled at every controller in recent times, he also says the station has had some 'challenging' listening figures (2+2=?). It's noticeable that although overall reach y-o-y is up this quarter, the Breakfast figure is down from 773k to 749k. I would interpret the reasonably good share figure as showing that fewer listeners are listening for longer - which is exactly what is intended by dividing the schedule into stripped programmes of up to 3 hours and longer. Routine background listening with half an ear.

[eighthobstruction]

....whether the knobs on....??

[hmvman]

..But the Proms were slow to change. As late as 1959 the whole season (apart from the Natiional Youth Orchestra's one concert) was given by four orchestras and five conductors. The glitzy international feel of the Proms is more recent than many realise. I've felt for some time that it's moving in the wrong direction. Surely this is the time to revive the original purpose, with a classical-only Proms dedicated to educating the public .

But this is where I realise I've lost touch with the way things have gone. Many people,, I myself included , would rather stay at home and listen to a favourite recording than run the gauntlet of today's audience-behaviour, and if it's a new work, hear it on DAB. Maye this is why the Proms are dumbing-down, beacause its the 'pop' concerts that get the enthusiastic live audiences. Even here, the 'indispensible' recordings are often 70 years old. I know there's a core of music enthusiasts who mistrust recordings and believe live music (I mean , being in the presence of the musicans) is the only reality, but they'r emostly jazz and folk fans nowadays, I fear.

Nevertheless, I do feel the content of the Proms has been allowed to drift towards away from clasical towards populism without a clear statement of policy. I wish the BBC woild think hard about exactly what they want the Proms to be, and tell us plainly . Then we can decide if it's for us any more.

I think these are interesting points. Just what do the BBC want the Proms to be now, and with Sam Jackson taking over as Director what will be the future direction, more populism?

I was also struck by Sir Velo's comments on the Ensemble Resonanz Mozart concert thread:

I can't see the point in not having preconceptions challenged at a concert. If the only intention is to have one's expectations and prejudices reinforced then [we] might as well just stay at home and reach for our Bohm or Klemperer CDs!

Should the Proms be a sort of 'workshop' to try out new musical ideas and new ways of approaching familiar works or should it be something more 'comfortable' a la Classic FM - or, indeed, something in between?

[french frank]

Should the Proms be a sort of 'workshop' to try out new musical ideas and new ways of approaching familiar works or should it be something more 'comfortable' a la Classic FM - or, indeed, something in between?

I liked the ideas of Philip Clark, outlined in the OP. Alongside the familiar works and composers there should be modern work in any genre (or none?) which is genuinely innovative and intriguing.

[oddoneout]

Should the Proms be a sort of 'workshop' to try out new musical ideas and new ways of approaching familiar works or should it be something more 'comfortable' a la Classic FM - or, indeed, something in between?

Does it have to be either/or? I think both have their positives. As I see it, the difficulty with the new musical ideas and approaches side of it is the dividing line between value and gimmick, or between genuine new thinking and emperor's new clothes, and I don't think the current line of travel is getting that right.
Orchestrating "pop faves" falls on the wrong side of that line for several reasons in my view, but sadly seems to be the way the thought processes( I may or may not be using that phrase ironically) are happening.
On the other hand the Paraorchestra concert seems to me to fall on the value side. It will certainly challenge preconceptions, (if not in quite the way Sir Velo perhaps meant on the Prom 41 thread!)

[LMcD]

Yes but reach up on Q2 2023 and TSSA slightly up also. Listening tends to be heavier in the winter months - it it’s all within noise level to be honest.

Just been back through the last ten years of Q2 and the figures are pretty unchanging unlike the other BBC networks who have lost share . Controllers don’t have much impact to be honest. The whole commission and schedule model which puts so much power in the hands of one person is a broken one - a monumental waste of your money folks. Frankly you could axe the whole lot and spend the money on more producers and musicians.*

* and the same goes for TV with knobs on.

(I think the following applies both to the Proms and to Radio 3 in general)

If some long-time Friends of Radio 3 are listening less often or have stopped altogether, but new listeners are being attracted, some of whom listen for prolonged periods, will whoever judges these things regard this as 'a job well done' because overall the numbers are holding up even though the content and the way in which people consume it have changed? In my own case, I listen much less than I used to, have not been seduced into listening to Breakfast - which I still enjoy - beyond 9.00 a.m., and only occasionally feel the need to switch on again before Night Tracks (which, perversely, I now listen to more often and for longer!) Is it also possible that the bombardment of trailers is really starting to prove counter-productive by attracting new listeners while alienating some Radio 3 'regulars' who are probably fully aware of what's going to be broadcast and when ?

[french frank]

If some long-time Friends of Radio 3 are listening less often or have stopped altogether, but new listeners are being attracted, some of whom listen for prolonged periods, will whoever judges these things regard this as 'a job well done' because overall the numbers are holding up even though the content and the way in which people consume it have changed?

Exactly what the Friends (me) argued for years. I think we attracted several leading composers with the argument that the audience open to new music was switching off and the 'easy listening'*** audience would not necessarily be interested in new music.

*** By 'easy listening' I'm not referring to the music itself as 'easy' but to the way it's being listened to - and intended to be listened to - for a few hours at a time with half an ear.

Looking at the Rajar figures for R3 - the reach is not in any way comparable because the schedule contained such programming as Test Match Special and Open University(?) courses - what is noticeable is how low the listening hours were compared to the number of people tuning in. Taking the earliest figures I have for a June quarter (1995), the reach was 2.397m, hours per listener 3.7, total hours 8921k. It was understood that listeners used to be more selective in what they listened to: the evening concert, perhaps, or Composer of the Week. But the Radio Times was much more forthcoming about the times pieces of music would be played, so it was possible to tune in for an hour or less to hear something specific.

[LMcD]

Exactly what the Friends (me) argued for years. I think we attracted several leading composers with the argument that the audience open to new music was switching off and the 'easy listening'*** audience would not necessarily be interested in new music.

*** By 'easy listening' I'm not referring to the music itself as 'easy' but to the way it's being listened to - and intended to be listened to - for a few hours at a time with half an ear.

Looking at the Rajar figures for R3 - the reach is not in any way comparable because the schedule contained such programming as Test Match Special and Open University(?) courses - what is noticeable is how low the listening hours were compared to the number of people tuning in. Taking the earliest figures I have for a June quarter (1995), the reach was 2.397m, hours per listener 3.7, total hours 8921k. It was understood that listeners used to be more selective in what they listened to: the evening concert, perhaps, or Composer of the Week. But the Radio Times was much more forthcoming about the times pieces of music would be played, so it was possible to tune in for an hour or less to hear something specific.

I suspect that those who want to prove that Radio 3 is heading in the right direction will always quote whichever figure - reach/hours per listener/total hours/number of listeners - that they believe or hope backs up their assertion.

[cloughie]

Yes but Radio Cornwall is back on top share wise which fundamentally is all that matters.

Does that include Radio Devon when they come together? Mind you David White’s M-F afternoon attracts a nationwide following .

[french frank]

I suspect that those who want to prove that Radio 3 is heading in the right direction will always quote whichever figure - reach/hours per listener/total hours/number of listeners - that they believe or hope backs up their assertion.

That's right. At 5p per listener, R3 is more expensive than the other network radio stations on the basis of cost per listener hour (plh): R1 2p, R2 1p, R4 1.5p, R5L 4p. But 1Xtra costs 6p plh and the Asian Network also costs 5p plh. And BBC Radio Scotland costs 9p plh. And Radio Nan Gàidheal costs a whopping 30p plh. In terms of real money, R3 costs less than any of the other network radio stations but more plh. It costs more than the smaller stations but not more plh. Pick whichever metric you want in order to demonstrate that R3 is an expensive service.

[antongould]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-the-proms-safe-with-the-bbc/

May be of interest …..

[oddoneout]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...-with-the-bbc/

May be of interest …..

Might well be but "This article is for subscribers only".

[antongould]

Might well be but "This article is for subscribers only".

oh dear thought that might be the case …. to inaccurately summarise - whilst the Proms are a good thing and should continue …. they are being spoilt by the Woke Army at the BBC …. too many female and ethnic composers and too many non classical Proms ….. in fact bog standard Henderson….