Whither the Proms?

[french frank]

Interesting piece by the critic Philip Clark in a Prospect Culture newsletter. Clark raved about the Braxton concert: "Despite the main man’s unavoidable absence, I felt cheered that, at last, the BBC had grasped a fundamental truth about how such music operates."

Clark has no problem with the expansion of the Proms beyond classical music but was dismissive of recent concerts which 'have not been given the thought they deserve'. Tribute jazz and rock concerts with 'classicised' orchestral accompaniments rather than engaging with (non-commercial i.e. NOT Sam Smith) modern composers and performers. "A well-meaning tribute to David Bowie, a few months after his death in 2016, was widely ridiculed for fussy post-minimalist orchestrations that soft-pedalled the spirit of dark voodoo that haunts albums such as Outside and Blackstar. This year, a concert focused on Nick Drake suffered similarly—it sounded all the notes but missed the music by a mile [...]. [So] commission new work from composers such as William Parker, Roscoe Mitchell and Tyshawn Sorey, who open up spaces between composition and improvisation—and can be present to make a case for their work."

He makes a cogent point about the BBC not engaging pop stars who can hire - and fill - the RAH out of their own pocket rather than spending scarce resources to pay them to perform. The BBC has its reasons which reason knows not.

[Pulcinella]

I thought you were asking for directions to get to the Bristol Beacon.


Is the thread title the one you wanted?
Whither the Proms, or Wither the Proms, perhaps?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Interesting piece by the critic Philip Clark in a Prospect Culture newsletter. Clark raved about the Braxton concert: "Despite the main man’s unavoidable absence, I felt cheered that, at last, the BBC had grasped a fundamental truth about how such music operates."

Clark has no problem with the expansion of the Proms beyond classical music but was dismissive of recent concerts which 'have not been given the thought they deserve'. Tribute jazz and rock concerts with 'classicised' orchestral accompaniments rather than engaging with (non-commercial i.e. NOT Sam Smith) modern composers and performers. "A well-meaning tribute to David Bowie, a few months after his death in 2016, was widely ridiculed for fussy post-minimalist orchestrations that soft-pedalled the spirit of dark voodoo that haunts albums such as Outside and Blackstar. This year, a concert focused on Nick Drake suffered similarly—it sounded all the notes but missed the music by a mile [...]. [So] commission new work from composers such as William Parker, Roscoe Mitchell and Tyshawn Sorey, who open up spaces between composition and improvisation—and can be present to make a case for their work."

He makes a cogent point about the BBC not engaging pop stars who can hire - and fill - the RAH out of their own pocket rather than spending scarce resources to pay them to perform. The BBC has its reasons which reason knows not.

He’s right spending public money on rock stars to perform at a classical music festival is not how the licence fee should be spent. The exception would be when that rock star attempts something unusual eg, The Who’s Tommy or the Arnold Concerto for Rock Group . But The Who don’t need the Proms do they ? It should definitely not be spending money on ‘classical ‘ string orchestrations of pop music which rarely work unless they are done with real originality.

[french frank]

Is the thread title the one you wanted?
Whither the Proms, or Wither the Proms, perhaps?

Pedant. I was going to call it Whither the Proms but thought it sounded a bit ... y'know?

I agree with Ein Heldenleben. As well as jazz musicians, there must be rock musicians producing musically exciting work (loooooong experience tells me I wouldn't be interested in it ) - and less likely, I'd have thought, to be Really Big Names but not complete unknowns. Not sure about this (not my field) but there might be more exciting contemporary classical composers than the ones who get commissions?

As for Philip Clark, this is where he's coming from musically:

https://www.theguardian.com/profile/philip-clark

[Pulcinella]

Pedant.

Takes one to know one!


I thought that you (of all people) would consider Where the Proms? more than a little odd.

[Darkbloom]

I don't know if it's a barometer of anything, but interest in the Proms on these boards has become pretty minimal these days. I've been to about 8 or 9 Proms this season, and most have been quite good, but there's something missing about the experience. Whether it's the ticketing system they use, which encourages the more casual concert-goer, I don't know. Maybe I've changed and the Proms have remained mostly the same.

[french frank]

I thought that you (of all people) would consider Where the Proms? more than a little odd.

Stick to the topic, please

[Ein Heldenleben]

The phrase ‘Whither the Health Service / Economy / EU ? ‘used to be a in-house joke all purpose title at the Beeb when no one could think of a better one for a programme on the above rather broad topics.

[LMcD]

I don't know if it's a barometer of anything, but interest in the Proms on these boards has become pretty minimal these days. I've been to about 8 or 9 Proms this season, and most have been quite good, but there's something missing about the experience. Whether it's the ticketing system they use, which encourages the more casual concert-goer, I don't know. Maybe I've changed and the Proms have remained mostly the same.

The Proms seem, rather than remaining mostly the same, to be trying - arguably too hard - to attract 'new' audiences from as many different age and interest groups as possible. Whether such an approach will work is open to question, I would think. Some clearly target fans of particular performers or possibly controversial performance styles. I've watched and/or listened to 5 or 6 so far - far fewer than in the past.

[smittims]

I've been trying to remember the last time I attended a mainstream classical concert - it may be as long ago as 1988 or 1992 - to decide if I'm qualified to comment, as I thought the future of the Proms is to some extent the future of classical concerts in an age of streaming and digital remastering of a vitually limitless back-catalogue.

The initial purpose of the Proms was, in the words of its founders, to create an audience for classical and modern music (in 1895, that meant Wagner, Tchaikovsky and specifically new works by British composers) . At that time there were virtually no recordings available,and mainstream concerts (Richter at S. James' Hall) were expensive ; the Proms were cheap and no-one worried too much about the standard of performance. With only three rehearsals for six concerts including a good many premieres,the orchestra must have been sight-reading most of the time. As late as the arly post-war era, Sir Adrian Boult said a lower standard of performance must be accepted.

By that time the 'initail purpose' had been achieved. Classical music held a prominent place in English cultural life, witness the number of popular feature films either about or involving classical music (Dangerous moonlight , Brief Encounter, While I live, Trent's Last Case, etc.). Even short documentary films had classical or classical-type music specially written for orchestra, and audiences of radio comedy shows were expected to understand jokes about Rimsky-Korsakov or Shostakovitch. Then along came 'pop' and it all changed.

But the Proms were slow to change. As late as 1959 the whole season (apart from the Natiional Youth Orchestra's one concert) was given by four orchestras and five conductors. The glitzy international feel of the Proms is more recent than many realise. I've felt for some time that it's moving in the wrong direction. Surely this is the time to revive the original purpose, with a classical-only Proms dedicated to educating the public .

But this is where I realise I've lost touch with the way things have gone. Many people,, I myself included , would rather stay at home and listen to a favourite recording than run the gauntlet of today's audience-behaviour, and if it's a new work, hear it on DAB. Maye this is why the Proms are dumbing-down, beacause its the 'pop' concerts that get the enthusiastic live audiences. Even here, the 'indispensible' recordings are often 70 years old. I know there's a core of music enthusiasts who mistrust recordings and believe live music (I mean , being in the presence of the musicans) is the only reality, but they'r emostly jazz and folk fans nowadays, I fear.

Nevertheless, I do feel the content of the Proms has been allowed to drift towards away from clasical towards populism without a clear statement of policy. I wish the BBC woild think hard about exactly what they want the Proms to be, and tell us plainly . Then we can decide if it's for us any more.

[french frank]

The Proms seem, rather than remaining mostly the same, to be trying - arguably too hard - to attract 'new' audiences from as many different age and interest groups as possible. Whether such an approach will work is open to question, I would think.

I see there was nothing here about the latest Rajar figures. I've got tired of saying "Another duff set of figures this quarter"(1.833m reach). The BBC (and Radio 3) seem totally bereft of any personnel with genuine critical and analytical faculties (or perhaps they just come up with the "wrong answers" for today's BBC?). Marketing, market research and focus group rule, OK? Deep gloom.

[oddoneout]

I'm glad the thread title has been changed. When I saw "Where the Proms" I thought at first the general Proms thread had disappeared and it was a call-out to find it. When I read the post I wondered why our learned poster had phrased it thus, when "whither" was what was meant.

but thought it sounded a bit ... y'know?

R3 as viewed by the outside world ie pretentious, elitist? But this is the for3 forum, not the meeja, we can cope with "whither" - and may be resigned to "wither" as well, sadly ...

[Old Grumpy]

I wish the BBC woild think hard about exactly what they want the Proms to be, and tell us plainly . Then we can decide if it's for us any more.

Surely one can decide this on a individual basis using the Proms Guide?

I used to go to Proms on a reasonably regular basis as a youngster, then living relatively near London. Since starting work and moving North (much further than Watford!) I have not been at all and rarely listen.

[Quarky]

The glitzy international feel of the Proms is more recent than many realise. I've felt for some time that it's moving in the wrong direction. Surely this is the time to revive the original purpose, with a classical-only Proms dedicated to educating the public .
.

Agreed heavily - although worth noting there is a large audience for the Proms in Europe and the States.

I have followed Classical music off and on in phases since my time at Birmingham University. There was a phase around 2007 where I attended the Proms regularly. Eventually gave up with problems of getting there - traffic queues in Marylebone and parking in Hyde Park. But the great advantage of being "up close and personal" to an orchestra is to appreciate works which might otherwise slip over one's consciousness and be lost.
Still enlarging my appreciation of classical music. I caught the other day a well-known work by Mozart, which had eluded me for 50 years, at least!

[Ein Heldenleben]

I see there was nothing here about the latest Rajar figures. I've got tired of saying "Another duff set of figures this quarter"(1.833m reach). The BBC (and Radio 3) seem totally bereft of any personnel with genuine critical and analytical faculties (or perhaps they just come up with the "wrong answers" for today's BBC?). Marketing, market research and focus group rule, OK? Deep gloom.

Yes but Radio Cornwall is back on top share wise which fundamentally is all that matters.