Proms 2024

[Prommer]

I find this to be an interesting, well-reasoned and logical post. It's not how I want it to be but given the current reality of Britain today then it has, to a degree, to be reluctantly accepted.

I've been attending the Proms every season since 1978 but there's very little excited anticipation of the season announcement now. It felt like Christmas Day at one time but truth to tell, I'd forgotten that yesterday was 'the day' until well into the morning.

Me too, until I heard Sam Jackson on the Today programme.

Ten years ago I would have been flitting in and out of bookshops to see if they had mistakenly put out copies of the season programme a day to two early!

[Prommer]

I recall a performance of the Military symphony at a Prom about 15 years ago where many of the percussionists left after the second movement, only to process on stage during the last one playing various instruments including a 'Jingling Johnny'.

Haydn's orchestral Masses seem to be very out of favour on the concert platform at the moment. I have for some years been trying to persuade a choir I sing in to programme one, but to no avail as yet, although we've had a lot of Mozart.

Haydn masses are largely how I came to classical music.

[makropulos]

Looking through the whole programme in more detail, there are quite a few concerts I'll try to get to. Among others: Oramo doing Holst's (gorgeous) Cloud Messenger, the Busoni Piano Concerto, Pappano doing the War Requiem, Suzuki's St John Passion, both of the Czech Philharmonic Proms (which should be outstanding), K. Petrenko doing Má vlast, Britten's MSND... Aside from the blatantly populist events, it looks to me like a season with plenty of good stuff in it.

[oddoneout]

Looking at the Proms in a little detail, and mixing the programmes in a very non-rigorous way with demographics of listening audiences, may be the division between classical and pop concerts is a little misleading.

Firstly, I note that practically all concerts feature a symphony orchestra, apart from some chamber music, some workshops, and proms 51 and 64. Even Prom 2 , Disco Music, will be performed by a Symphony Orchestra.

On demographics, a survey by Classic FM showed that 83 percent of British people under 25 are 'encountering' and 'engaging' with orchestral music. Obviously the great majority of people under 25 prefer pop music, of one type or another. For Classical music, the target audience for the BBC is the 39-54 age group, whereas the average age of the BBC Radio 3 listener is 65. My very un-scientific conclusion is that Proms 2024 is consistent with Henry Wood's aim in the sense of attempting to attract younger people to the Classical world. OK, tear me apart....

There is quite a bit of interest for me in Proms 2024, including Purcell Faerie Queen, Britten Midsummer Night's Dream, even Britten's 4 minute "Shepherd's Carol". However I will be picking and choosing and not attending the concerts in person.

The orchestra aspect is something that is mentioned in connection with one of the "alternative" Proms. There is no doubt that experiencing that live is quite something and has broad appeal. I'm not convinced by this however

Proms 2024 is consistent with Henry Wood's aim in the sense of attempting to attract younger people to the Classical world.

It may increase the numbers of people who experience what "classical" instrumentalists can bring to the listening experience, but that isn't the same as being immediately drawn to hear those same musicians in their day jobs playing their usual repertoire. My student friends in the mid 70s watching ELO didn't go off to find cassettes of string players in "classical" repertoire, and the LSO disco tracks booming out from numerous keep fit classes in the 80s didn't in my experience inspire those gym bunnies to go off and find the "proper" versions* of Swan Lake etc. I don't think the use of instruments and real (ie not electronic) music content in gaming soundtracks has resulted in a rush to experience similar sounds in a different genre, ie classical.
The changes to the Proms content wouldn't bother me too much if it wasn't for the fact that classical music in this country is facing so many challenges that are resulting in less and less of it being available as live experiences(even for those already in the know so to speak) and the groups responsible for concerts, operas etc facing very real, and in some cases immediate, threats to their future. If the Proms then becomes one of the few places where, like a circus or a zoo, one can see performing musicians, that would not in my view represent progress for anyone or by any definition, particularly if what they end up playing isn't even the several hundred year's worth of music that their instruments and techniques were developed for. I don't think it would fulfill Henry Wood's aims either.


* such as waltzes in the original 3/4 instead of 4/4...

[oddoneout]

For some strange reason Haydn has always had a raw deal at the Proms. A few of the better known symphonies aside, I can only recall the odd Creation and Trumpet Concerto since I've been going.

A performance of The Creation using the massed forces Haydn actually wanted would be perfect for the RAH.

He doesn't seem to figure much on R3 these days either, certainly not as evening concert material.

[smittims]

Schubert too is often neglected at the Proms. Now that would not be approved by Henry Wood.

I think the notion that fans of the non-classical artists will tune into Radio 3 to hear them, and then stay to hear Beethoven or Boulez, is pie in the sky. And I don't think Sam Jackson really believes it. Whatever we think of him, he is an intelligent man with experience of the public perception of broadcast music. Whatever he says, the changes are simply a process of de-classicalizing the Proms.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Schubert too is often neglected at the Proms. Now that would not be approved by Henry Wood.

I think the notion that fans of the non-classical artists will tune into Radio 3 to hear them, and then stay to hear Beethoven or Boulez, is pie in the sky. And I don't think Sam Jackson really believes it. Whatever we think of him, he is an intelligent man with experience of the public perception of broadcast music. Whatever he says, the changes are simply a process of de-classicalizing the Proms.

Perhaps he thinks he’ll convert me to Sam Smith. There are pop and rock musicians around of some major musical worth. Sam S isn’t one of them - just a product of marketing and the publicity machine. I also see that Nick Drake is being celebrated . I just can’t see it. I’d honestly rather they had a Led Zep tribute band playing in the Arena bar.

[Roger Webb]

...,There are pop and rock musicians around of some major musical worth..

Yes there are, and genres such as so-called 'Prog' required some craft on the part of the executants - many were RCM or RAM trained - and the proof of some musical worth is the apparent resurgence of interest in the genre - to the extent that a Prog Prom was mooted a couple of years ago, by no less than Tom Service.....although an interval discussion with Georgia Mann revealed that neither knew much about the subject

[Ein Heldenleben]

Yes there are, and genres such as so-called 'Prog' required some craft on the part of the executants - many were RCM or RAM trained - and the proof of some musical worth is the apparent resurgence of interest in the genre - to the extent that a Prog Prom was mooted a couple of years ago, by no less than Tom Service.....although an interval discussion with Georgia Mann on the subject revealed that neither knew much about the subject!

Do you mean Prog rock ? You have hit on the genre that is most likely to liked by classical music fans born in the late fifties / sixties i.e me .,That is now about as unfashionable as flared trousers. However Yes for example had some fine musicians and I so much rather see them at the RAH than Sam Smith or indeed Northern Soul or Nick Drake tributes or Paloma Faith etc. Frankly I’d rather see Machine Head * , Clapton or indeed Maiden. At least there’s no fakery with them. If you re going to go down the rock mega star route why not have people who are actually talented.

* is the Proms arena the first proto mosh pit ?

[Roger Webb]

Do you mean Prog rock ? You have hit on the genre that is most likely to liked by classical music fans born in the late fifties / sixties i.e me

Yes, Prog Rock, and, although there are a lot of sub-genres, the types that have obvious affinities with classical music are the ones most likely to appeal to 'classical' music fans: early Genesis, Yes (you mentioned), Gentle Giant and, perhaps the band that, although not well known, The Enid..,.try 'Aerie Faerie Nonsense', their seminal album. Side 1 has a good representation of what they do - 'Ondine' is a wonderfully constructed piece of chamber music in the 'Celtic Fringe' tradition by their leader, keyboardist Robert John Godfrey (ex RCM), and side 2 has their magnum opus, 'Fand', based on the same legend as the Bax.

Of course way back I think Soft Machine were the first 'rock' band to appear at the Proms....I mention them as their erstwhile guitarist Alan Holdsworth recently died.

[LMcD]

Schubert too is often neglected at the Proms. Now that would not be approved by Henry Wood.

I think the notion that fans of the non-classical artists will tune into Radio 3 to hear them, and then stay to hear Beethoven or Boulez, is pie in the sky. And I don't think Sam Jackson really believes it. Whatever we think of him, he is an intelligent man with experience of the public perception of broadcast music. Whatever he says, the changes are simply a process of de-classicalizing the Proms.

I suspect that young Jackson would say he's 'refreshing' them. He obviously believes in the possibility of being all things to all men (and women). Good luck with that, mate!

[Barbirollians]

The Proms Guide listing says: Piano Concerto No. 5 – Andante. So it's only the middle movement being played (and that does take about 11 minutes).

It’s confirmed Sir Stephen Hough defensively on twitter says LNOTP is a buffet of hors d’oeuvres and desserts - it didn’t used to be and too much of both make you sick . I think Benjamin Grosvenor played the last full concerto on a last night . So hardly that long ago.

[Ein Heldenleben]

It’s confirmed Sir Stephen Hough defensively on twitter says LNOTP is a buffet of hors d’oeuvres and desserts - it didn’t used to be and too much of both make you sick . I think Benjamin Grosvenor played the last full concerto on a last night . So hardly that long ago.

I hope Stephen gets his full fee . Not bad for ten minutes work (and a lifetime of practice)
Just looked at the score - he should definitely charge full whack.

[Barbirollians]

What a great shame - VF gave a terrific performance with Mirga and the CBSO - maybe a recording beckons

[Pulcinella]

A Times article by AN Wilson:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/89545cce-8ebc-4811-bdef-b20e57d01b1c?shareToken=7bf351cc019cfdb084d0f80f28ab82f9