Prom 61: Adès / Bruckner, BRSO, Rattle

[Prommer]

Think it was the Otello but probably 1987??

The Kleiber ROH Elektra is now available in good sound on YouTube BTW.

[Darkbloom]

I think that's right... could this be due to his obvious talent mixed with the idea that the Kleibers somehow had it in the blood?

My take, for what it's worth, is that they could acknowledge his ability because they knew that he didn't represent a threat to their careers. He was too flakey to run an opera house or a major symphony orchestra, so they weren't in competition with him. You don't often hear conductors being so fulsome about their contemporaries, they usually wait until they're dead.

[Prommer]

Kleiber was very funny about Celibidache, as you will probably know...

[vinteuil]

Kleiber was very funny about Celibidache, as you will probably know...

No. Do share

.

[Prommer]

Carlos Kleiber wrote a humorous letter to/about Celibidache, which was published in the Munich press:

Dear Sergiu!!

We have read about you in the Spiegel. You get on our nerves, but we forgive you. We have no choice anyway; forgiveness is in style Up Here. Potato-sack Karli (Bohm) made some objection, but after Kna (Knappertsbusch) and I had a heart-to-heart with him, he stopped whining.

Wilhelm (Furtwangler) now all of a sudden insists that he has never even heard of you. Papa Josef, Wolfgang Amadeus, Ludwig, Johannes, and Anton all prefer the second violins on the right and claim that your tempi are all wrong. But actually, they don't really give a damn about it. Up Here we are not supposed to care a damn about anything. The Boss does not allow it.

An old Zen master who lives next door says you got it all wrong about Zen Buddhism. Bruno (Walter) is totally cracked up by your comments. I have the suspicion that he secretly shares your views about me and Karli (Bohm). Maybe you could say something mean about him for a change, otherwise he feels so left out.

I hate to break it to you, but everybody up here is totally crazy about Herbert (von Karajan). In fact, the other conductors are a little jealous of him. We can't wait to welcome him up here in about 15 or 20 years. Too bad you can't be with us then.

But people say that where you will go the cuisine is much better, and the orchestras down there never stop rehearsing. They even make little mistakes on purpose, so that you have a chance to correct them for all eternity. I'm sure you will like that, Sergiu. Up Here, the angels read the composers' minds. We conductors only have to listen. Only God knows why I'm here.

Have lots of fun,
In old friendship,
Arturo

[Prommer]

Telex von Toscanini (Himmel) an Celibidache (München)

Lieber Sergiu!

Wir haben im SPIEGEL von Dir gelesen. Du nervst, aber wir vergeben Dir. Es bleibt uns nichts anderes übrig: Vergeben gehört hier zum guten Ton. Kartoffelsack-Karli* erhob einige Einwände, aber als Kna und ich ihm gut zugeredet und ihm versichert haben, daß er musikalisch sei, hörte er auf zu lamentieren.

Wilhelm behauptet jetzt plötzlich steif und fest, daß er Deinen Namen noch nie gehört hat. Papa Joseph, Wolfgang Amadeus, Ludwig, Johannes und Anton sagen, daß ihnen die zweiten Violinen auf der rechten Seite lieber und daß Deine Tempi alle falsch sind. Aber eigentlich kümmern sie sich einen Dreck drum. Hier oben darf man sich sowieso nicht um Dreck kümmern. Der Boss will es nicht.

Ein alter Meister des Zen, der gleich nebenan wohnt, sagt, daß Du den Zen-Buddhismus total falsch verstanden hast. Bruno hat sich über Deine Bemerkungen halb krankgelacht. Ich habe den Verdacht, daß er Dein Urteil über mich und Karli insgeheim teilt. Vielleicht könntest Du zur Abwechslung mal auch was Gemeines über ihn sagen, er fühlt sich sonst so ausgeschlossen.

Es tut mir leid, Dir das sagen zu müssen, aber hier oben sind alle ganz verrückt nach Herbert, ja die Dirigenten sind sogar ein klein bißchen eifersüchtig auf ihn. Wir können es kaum erwarten, ihn in etwa fünfzehn bis zwanzig Jahren hier herzlich willkommen zu heißen. Schade, daß Du dann nicht dabeisein kannst. Aber man sagt, daß dort, wo Du hinkommst, viel besser gekocht wird und daß die Orchester dort unten endlos proben. Sie machen sogar absichtlich kleine Fehler, damit Du sie bis in alle Ewigkeit korrigieren kannst.

Ich bin sicher, daß Dir das gefallen wird, Sergiu. Hier oben lesen die Engel alles direkt von den Augen der Komponisten ab, wir Dirigenten brauchen nur zuzuhören. Nur Gott weiß, wie ich hierher gekommen bin.

Viel Spaß wünscht Dir in aller Liebe Arturo.

[Prommer]

Who says conductors get all jealous??

[Darkbloom]

The Furtwangler reference must be about the special relationship Celi claimed he had with him, but wouldn't talk about. I guess Carlos thought he made it all up.

[Prommer]

Yes, though of course Celi took over from Furty at the BPO due to de-nazification...

Kleiber lived in the 'burbs of Munich, so had plenty of time to soak up gossip (and even performances?) given by Celi with the MPO...

They also both did the Emperor concerto with Michelangeli, too.

And they both shared a love of asking for a LOT of rehearsal time.

So, not as different as they each would have thought.

[silvestrione]

Yes, though of course Celi took over from Furty at the BPO due to de-nazification...

Kleiber lived in the 'burbs of Munich, so had plenty of time to soak up gossip (and even performances?) given by Celi with the MPO...

They also both did the Emperor concerto with Michelangeli, too.

And they both shared a love of asking for a LOT of rehearsal time.

So, not as different as they each would have thought.

Are those Emperors available?

[Barbirollians]

Are those Emperors available?

I imagine the Celi is still going on despite the deaths of soloist and conductor .

[Barbirollians]

I rather liked Aquifer- then again I like most of Ades's orchestral works .

I enjoyed the Bruckner 4 but didnt really see or hear the point of this new edition and its addition and subtraction of bars though Rattle is clearly very keen . I actually think there was more electricty in Rattle's account with the LSO on LSO Live.

[Prommer]

Are those Emperors available?

Yes - here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2NiMGNoo8c

Not the Kleiber, though...