Prom 61: Adès / Bruckner, BRSO, Rattle

[Petrushka]

I wish people would leave poor old Anton alone. I know he started it but there's a perfectly good version of Bruckner 4 and we don't need to keep monkeying around with it. I'm sure I'm not the only one that finds the rough edges part of his charm. No amount of 'help' is going to turn into a perfect work.

Amen to all of this. I've never had a problem with the finale and I've been listening to this Symphony for exactly 50 years.

The orchestral sound was much better integrated, as others have said, than Petrenko in the 5th. Still can't understand why it got such rave reviews. Such a difference in conducting style between Petrenko and Rattle, too. The former, all flailing arms and mopping up the sweat between movements; the latter very often almost as minimalist in gesture as Haitink in his last years. There are no prizes for guessing which one I prefer.

Rattle kept things moving. The first movement flowed beautifully, nothing stodgy here! The second movement ditto and again I have no problem with this movement and was surprised when it had finished.

On the evidence of what we've heard in the past few days I'd say that Petrenko needs more experience conducting Bruckner, while Rattle is developing into a Bruckner conductor of the first rank.

[mathias broucek]

Dear Mathias, may I ask, what's the sound like up there? I'm thinking of going to the Shost 5 on Monday and was thinking of sitting up there as it's a lot less expensive.

I've been up there for three concerts and the sound is fine. I was a bit too far to the left (stage right) tonight but there were very few seats left when I booked. You'll enjoy the music just fine. With the Berliners (Bruckner) I was Central and sound was fine. Go for it!

[Darkbloom]

Amen to all of this. I've never had a problem with the finale and I've been listening to this Symphony for exactly 50 years.

The orchestral sound was much better integrated, as others have said, than Petrenko in the 5th. Still can't understand why it got such rave reviews. Such a difference in conducting style between Petrenko and Rattle, too. The former, all flailing arms and mopping up the sweat between movements; the latter very often almost as minimalist in gesture as Haitink in his last years. There are no prizes for guessing which one I prefer.

Rattle kept things moving. The first movement flowed beautifully, nothing stodgy here! The second movement ditto and again I have no problem with this movement and was surprised when it had finished.

On the evidence of what we've heard in the past few days I'd say that Petrenko needs more experience conducting Bruckner, while Rattle is developing into a Bruckner conductor of the first rank.

I look forward to hearing it. I think Bruckner is better suited to the BRSO than the BPO anyway. There's a warmth that I find slightly lacking with the Berliners, for all their brilliance. I often come away from their concerts impressed rather than moved. I haven't seen Rattle for years (I think the last time must have been the Matthew Passion at the Proms) so this new minimalist Rattle is intriguing.

[DracoM]

[mikealdren]

Yes it’s ended guys ! Amazing for once pre-emptory bravos.

Yes there was a great pause before the applause as SR and the orchestra managed to hold their final pose, unusually good behaviour from the prom audience!

As to the performance, I was at both the BPO and BRSO concerts and both orchestras were fabulous but last night held out attention and Petrenko didn't.

[jonfan]

A joint winner in these two Bruckner performances this week is surely the RAH itself, adding bloom and space to climaxes as well as magical intensity to the quieter moments. One of THE great halls for this music? Listening at home I thought the engineering superb but spot miking of the BPO woodwind was too close at times. I must have some secret, effective filters on my headphones as I didn’t notice the coughing. So wrapped up in the music-making I suppose.

[oliver sudden]

I look forward to hearing it. I think Bruckner is better suited to the BRSO than the BPO anyway. There's a warmth that I find slightly lacking with the Berliners, for all their brilliance.

There’s a phrase in Australian football (or at least there used to be) saying that a team of champions will never be a match for a champion team.

Don’t know if it applies for all repertoire but I reckon it makes sense for Bruckner.

[Keith]

…the way Celibidache does, with a daringly slow but inexorable climb up the crescendo to the final thrilling cadence. Tonight the strings and horns were superb, though I think I detected which bars were by SR and disliked them.

Looking forward to being in the Arena tomorrow.

I didn't hear the radio talk as I was in the hall, but I don't think Rattle "composed" any additional bars or is introducing his own personal edition of the score. The programme note said the version was an newish one by Gunnar-Cohrs (which Rattle premiered and recoded in 2021) which makes some different editorial choices from different sources for the final version of the symphony. This might be helpful (or possibly not): Rattle & LSO premiere new BG Cohrs Urtext edition of Bruckner's Romantic. - Colin's Column (colinscolumn.com)

For what it's worth, I found last nights performance very compelling. Warm, detailed, big but also somehow light footed, the spirit of late Schubert never far away.

[mathias broucek]

…the way Celibidache does, with a daringly slow but inexorable climb up the crescendo to the final thrilling cadence. Tonight the strings and horns were superb, though I think I detected which bars were by SR and disliked them.

However well done the Coda is (and it was terrific last night) Celibidache is incomperable here. He goes half speed (endorsed by Robert Simpson in his Bruckner book) and I get goose bumps every time I remember it, let alone hear it.... Munich (EMI or from Vienna on Sony) is better than Swedish RSO (DG) or Stuttgart (Italian bootleg labels). Most intense of all is an in-house recording with Munich from Suntory Hall but hard to find and the sound is imperfect

[Keraulophone]

Celibidache … I get goose bumps every time

Same here. He’s even more inexorable than Horenstein at the end of Mahler 3.

[Darkbloom]

There’s a phrase in Australian football (or at least there used to be) saying that a team of champions will never be a match for a champion team.

Don’t know if it applies for all repertoire but I reckon it makes sense for Bruckner.

There's something missing when they play Bruckner. Even those much-praised Gunter Wand recordings he made late in his career with them leave me rather cold, I prefer his earlier ones with the Cologne orchestra. I've always had great affection for the BRSO ever since I saw them with Jansons at the Proms and they played a large chunk of Ein Heldenleben in the dark.

[Darkbloom]

However well done the Coda is (and it was terrific last night) Celibidache is incomperable here. He goes half speed (endorsed by Robert Simpson in his Bruckner book) and I get goose bumps every time I remember it, let alone hear it.... Munich (EMI or from Vienna on Sony) is better than Swedish RSO (DG) or Stuttgart (Italian bootleg labels). Most intense of all is an in-house recording with Munich from Suntory Hall but hard to find and the sound is imperfect

It's one of the great moments on disc - not just Bruckner, but in anything else I've heard. At the same time, I can't help thinking that Celibidache was a bit of a musical mountebank with his hour-long Eroicas etc. I wonder how many brass players must have keeled over with ruptured lungs.

[Keraulophone]

I didn't hear the radio talk as I was in the hall, but I don't think Rattle "composed" any additional bars or is introducing his own personal edition of the score. The programme note said the version was an newish one by Gunnar-Cohrs. This might be helpful (or possibly not)

Thanks for the link. Confusion reigns! SR told Petroc that there were 14 different versions of the 4th and that his (or G-C’s) cuts in the finale necessitated a new transition passage of a few (six?) bars. Like others, I have been satisfied with a longer finale for fifty years.

[duncan]

I enjoyed the Bruckner very much. It was quite brisk and it felt there was a constant pulse (not literally) throughout the performance that brought a sense of unity to the interpretation. There was much less of Rattle's tendency to dwell on beautiful details and 'admire the view'. It might have sounded rushed to some people but I was convinced at the time. I am not a Bruckner expert, I realised something was a bit different about the finale but could not have told you why, so you can weight my views accordingly.

I may investigate the Celibidache 4th although he's not a conductor I have warmed to in the past. I am slightly concerned it will trigger traumatic memories of the notorious Leif Segerstam Bruckner 8 at the Barbican a few years ago!

As I previously said, I thought the BPO/Petrenko B5 was sonically astonishing but felt a bit episodic. Perhaps this is in the nature of the piece but my recollection of performances by Wand and Haitink were that they held it together rather more convincingly. Those two set a high bar and if this was Petrenko's first Bruckner it was a great start.

The Ades was well crafted as you would expect and, to my ears, forgettable. Perhaps I should give it another go but I'm not in a rush to do so.

[Prommer]

I may investigate the Celibidache 4th although he's not a conductor I have warmed to in the past. I am slightly concerned it will trigger traumatic memories of the notorious Leif Segerstam Bruckner 8 at the Barbican a few years ago!

But that Segerstam Bruckner 8 was legendary!