Prom 56: Bruckner, BBC Singers / Berlin Philharmonic, O. Park / K. Petrenko

[edashtav]

Horns ok in the finale but still could have done with a tiny bit more puff...

They need a van Beinum solution

[mathias broucek]

Am stunned. Have never heard the opening played more beautifully. What an orchestra! Petrenko is also clearly an exceptional musician. Judged by the very highest standards, I'm not sure he has the "sweep" of Bruckner in the manner of Wand or Haitink (limiting myself to those I've heard live) - it seemed a little episodic at times. But what sublime episodes! And he did a great job at holding the finale together.

Ultimately, I come back to the orchestra - truly exceptional. Although I do agree that the brass didn't quite come through at the end - you don't necessarily need to go "full Schalk" with 11 extra brass a la Jochum but a bumper for the first trumpet might have been wise

[Petrushka]

From my seat in G stalls, ie the opposite side to them, the brass sounded too loud to me from the very start. They thus had no more to give in the finale where it really counts. The brass needs careful handling in this Symphony and needs to be graded accordingly. My feeling was that Petrenko let them off the leash too soon. Haitink and Jochum will show him, and us, how it's done.

There was way too much coughing again in the audience. Why are people shelling out £70 for a ticket plus travel etc only to sit there coughing? It was there from the start so boredom can't be a factor can it?

[Darkbloom]

From my seat in G stalls, ie the opposite side to them, the brass sounded too loud to me from the very start. They thus had no more to give in the finale where it really counts. The brass needs careful handling in this Symphony and needs to be graded accordingly. My feeling was that Petrenko let them off the leash too soon. Haitink and Jochum will show him, and us, how it's done.

There was way too much coughing again in the audience. Why are people shelling out £70 for a ticket plus travel etc only to sit there coughing? It was there from the start so boredom can't be a factor can it?

I'm guessing that a lot of people were there for the orchestra rather than the symphony and Bruckner 5 is quite a test for the newcomer, especially the first movement which feels like it takes so long to get going. So my guess would be, yes, a lot of people were finding it hard to concentrate and coughing inevitably follows.

[Darkbloom]

The presenter says "best performance of a Bruckner symphony I have ever heard..."

I wish they wouldn't do that, it's not their job.

[Darkbloom]

When it works, the finale of the Fifth is one of the most unforgettable moments in music, but it doesn't always quite come off. Even Furtwangler in his famous wartime recording blasts through the last couple of minutes and ruins what had been a wonderful performance until then. Haitink was an absolute master of pacing. When you got the end of Gotterdammerung you realised that he'd paced it from the first bar of Rheingold so the whole thing felt like one long journey.

[mathias broucek]

I'm guessing that a lot of people were there for the orchestra rather than the symphony and Bruckner 5 is quite a test for the newcomer follows.

There for the orchestra but without the wit to appreciate it... I mean, can a newbie REALLY appreciate the difference between the Berlin Phil and the BBC Symphony?

Completely agree about the coughing. It was particularly bad during the motets... (I still think that was silly programing although I did enjoy them.)

[Petrushka]

I'm guessing that a lot of people were there for the orchestra rather than the symphony and Bruckner 5 is quite a test for the newcomer, especially the first movement which feels like it takes so long to get going. So my guess would be, yes, a lot of people were finding it hard to concentrate and coughing inevitably follows.

I heard my first live Bruckner 5 at the 1980 Proms with Haitink and the Concertgebouw. I was aged 26 and already knew the 5th via the VPO/Maazel recording (that still stands up, by the way).

The coughing started the moment the motets began. Who on earth goes to a concert and does that? Most of the coughing didn't sound like throat clearing but more like for something to do or a nervous tic.

In 46 years of going to the Proms from the age of 24 I can say hand on heart that I've never once coughed during the music, even when I rather stupidly went when I had flu. You can check the cough level in that concert yourselves as it was Haitink's Shostakovich 10 with the LPO and it's on CD.

[mathias broucek]

The coughing started the moment the motets began. Who on earth goes to a concert and does that? Most of the coughing didn't sound like throat clearing but more like for something to do or a nervous tic.

In 46 years of going to the Proms from the age of 24 I can say hand on heart that I've never once coughed during the music, even when I rather stupidly went when I had flu. You can check the cough level in that concert yourselves as it was Haitink's Shostakovich 10 with the LPO and it's on CD.

Yes, the coughing was instant tonight...

BTW I was at that Haitink Prom too and it's a fantastic 10th!

[Darkbloom]

I heard my first live Bruckner 5 at the 1980 Proms with Haitink and the Concertgebouw. I was aged 26 and already knew the 5th via the VPO/Maazel recording (that still stands up, by the way).

The coughing started the moment the motets began. Who on earth goes to a concert and does that? Most of the coughing didn't sound like throat clearing but more like for something to do or a nervous tic.

In 46 years of going to the Proms from the age of 24 I can say hand on heart that I've never once coughed during the music, even when I rather stupidly went when I had flu. You can check the cough level in that concert yourselves as it was Haitink's Shostakovich 10 with the LPO and it's on CD.

I'd be surprised if they even knew they were doing it. I'm sure it's totally unconscious. Of course it's not a modern phenomenon, the opening of the Kna '62 Parsifal has lots of noisy coughing too. Lots of people who attend concerts have only the vaguest idea what's on the programme and I'm sure it's magnified at something like the Proms, which is more likely to attract the casual concert-goer. Bruckner 5 is particularly uncompromising and I'd say it was the last Bruckner you should hear if you were new to it, but I'm sure many people were lured by the BPO and nothing else. I'd be interested to hear how much coughing there is for the Bruckner 4 with Rattle. The second movement often sounds like you're on a bronchial ward.

[LMcD]

I'd be surprised if they even knew they were doing it. I'm sure it's totally unconscious. Of course it's not a modern phenomenon, the opening of the Kna '62 Parsifal has lots of noisy coughing too. Lots of people who attend concerts have only the vaguest idea what's on the programme and I'm sure it's magnified at something like the Proms, which is more likely to attract the casual concert-goer. Bruckner 5 is particularly uncompromising and I'd say it was the last Bruckner you should hear if you were new to it, but I'm sure many people were lured by the BPO and nothing else. I'd be interested to hear how much coughing there is for the Bruckner 4 with Rattle. The second movement often sounds like you're on a bronchial ward.

There was very little - if any - coughing during the Ma/Kovacos/Ax Prom, but somebody obligingly 'bookended' the Enigma Variations the other night, presumably in order to warn us that they were about to start and then that they had finished.

[mathias broucek]

Not much coughing at BCJ St John Passion. I guess that and the Ma will have had fewer "casual" attendees

[jonfan]

Jochum, in his note on the fifth, states that a Bruckner symphony has an ultimate climax and that in the fifth it’s at the end. In order to mitigate against tiredness overcoming the brass he employs 13 extra players for the last section, much to the alarm of orchestra treasurers!
It’s an overwhelming goose bump moment in Jochum’s 1958 recording with the BRSO. ‘’Naughty but nice’ comes to mind.
That is one of 3 stereo hifi ‘coming of age’ recordings that year: Solti Das Rheingold with the VPO and Beecham Ein Heldenleben with the RPO the other two. IMHO of course.

[Petrushka]

Jochum, in his note on the fifth, states that a Bruckner symphony has an ultimate climax and that in the fifth it’s at the end. In order to mitigate against tiredness overcoming the brass he employs 13 extra players for the last section, much to the alarm of orchestra treasurers!
It’s an overwhelming goose bump moment in Jochum’s 1958 recording with the BRSO. ‘’Naughty but nice’ comes to mind.
That is one of 3 stereo hifi ‘coming of age’ recordings that year: Solti Das Rheingold with the VPO and Beecham Ein Heldenleben with the RPO the other two. IMHO of course.

I believe that Jochum also does this in his live 1986 Concertgebouw recording.

I'm not sure that I share the general enthusiasm for last night's performance (I was in the hall).

Petrenko fell into the obvious bear trap that this Symphony holds of failing to pace the climaxes. As I've said already, I felt that the heavy brass were too loud from the very start and that this diminished all of the climaxes that came later. He certainly encouraged strong brass playing in his gestures but to my ears it sounded relentlessly loud. The price for this approach is paid at the very end when the exhausted players have nothing more to give. As Darkbloom has already said, Haitink was a master of this sort of pacing.

So, I'm afraid my overall verdict was that this performance didn't really work for me in the way that I feel Bruckner would have intended. It goes against the grain to say that the Berlin Philharmonic failed a Bruckner test but ultimately I think the blame can be laid at the conductor's door.

[Darkbloom]

From the description of this performance (I wasn't there) it almost sounds like it was conducted by another bearded Russian: Gergiev.

I remember getting a vivid demonstration of Haitink's many virtues when I heard him conduct The Queen of Spades at the ROH. Now, anyone who heard him conduct at Covent Garden knows how brilliant he was there, and it was well up to his usual standard, with lots of subtle touches in what it is quite a difficult score to get right. Come the revival, Gergiev took over and it was relentlessly loud from the start of the overture, pure Russian bombast and rather dull. Because he was so unassuming I think a lot of people underestimate what a genius Haitink was.