Prom 16: Cassandra Miller / Shostakovich, BBC Philharmonic, Power / Storgårds

[oliver sudden]

(Just how does the cymbal player get that crash during the hectic string passage in the first movement to time just right? Do they have to count like mad and hope for the best?)

As far as I’m concerned if the conductor does not give a jolly big cue for that moment then it is their own jolly fault if it doesn’t happen.

At least it’s not a proper (two-cymbal) clash but just a whack with a timp stick (in the score, anyway). So there’s a bit less that can go wrong.

(I’m not a percussionist but am occasionally called upon to play percussion and the last time I played a cymbal clash I turned one of them inside out )

[Pulcinella]

As far as I’m concerned if the conductor does not give a jolly big cue for that moment then it is their own jolly fault if it doesn’t happen.

At least it’s not a proper (two-cymbal) clash but just a whack with a timp stick (in the score, anyway). So there’s a bit less that can go wrong.

(I’m not a percussionist but am occasionally called upon to play percussion and the last time I played a cymbal clash I turned one of them inside out )

It's not a very jolly symphony though, is it?


I didn't find it as 'threatening' a performance as others I've heard: but maybe that's just me becoming more familiar with it.

[silvestrione]

It's not a very jolly symphony though, is it?


I didn't find it as 'threatening' a performance as others I've heard: but maybe that's just me becoming more familiar with it.

Yes, I felt the same...though I think I was grateful for that. The Rattle LSO mentioned above, in February, was much harder to take, for me.

[Petrushka]

The Rattle LSO mentioned above, in February, was much harder to take, for me.

That performance came on the day Navalny died and proved once again the eternal topicality of Shostakovich and his music.

[richardfinegold]

I understand what you're saying, Darkbloom, but the BBC is supposed to be a broadcasting organisation not an internet organisation,and they do clearly believe in the value of repeat broadcasts as they do so many.

Many people don't use the internet. In my own case I borrow someone's laptop and though it has a headphone socket, it's stopped working satisfactorily at present so I've been relying on rhe afternoon repeats as I'm usually in bed in the evenings.

Nevertheless I've managed to hear the Miller concerto. I imagine it tried many people's patience beyond the limit, (not to mention the orchestra,as it wasn't reallly a concerto was it? but a long lament with orchestral backing,) and it would be easy to dismiss : far too long for its meagre musical material , backward in idiom, lacking in variety, etc. But I could appreciate what the composer was trying to do. Like a lot of 'new ' works it seems to address the problem of how to write new tonal music, which isn't just pastiche, after the twentieth century. And the many quarter tones seemed an attempt to provide a musical equivalent of 'reading between the lines'.

I do wonder though whether the composer thought about how it would sound to an audience. It was a bit like a speech which the speaker has written , revised and rehearsed and knows thoroughly, but forgets that the aiudiensce haven't heard any of it and may know nothing of the subject . Like a lot of new music it seemed written to a theory , wothout considering how it would sound in practice. At least, that was my impression

I am grounded at home with Covid, so I sought out the broadcast here, and let’s just say the first piece didn’t enhance my mood. I’m a bit baffled by edash comments on the Shostakovich 4. Did I misinterpret or does he think that this a piece of Soviet agitprop?
I actually heard the piece live twice in 3 years here. The first was Haitink (and I bought the subsequent recording from the concerts, which in truth is remarkably similar to his first recording from 30 years earlier). The second was led by MTT. I love the piece but after the second time my wife asked if we could leave it off for a stretch, and I over heard another concert goer saying no wonder why Stalin wanted to send him to the Gulag.
I thought that Storgårds did a great job pacing the work. The digital feed here is 64 bps so it is very hard to judge the playing but it sounded pretty good to me. I drooled reading Petrushka’s description.
Maybe I’ll spend my last day of isolation playing the Fourths on my shelf. That would be the two Haitinks; Ormandy; Barshai; Petrenko/Liverpool; and my favorite, Kitaenko/Cologne Gurzenich, in SACD. Of course I won’t, but it would be interesting to audition all of them over a week

[smittims]

I think that if Shost 4 had been premiered in America (as was the seventh, and of course the sixth had a famoius early recoriding there) instead of being mothballed for 27 years, it might have been a very influential symphony on composers of those years. It's too wide ranging ot sum up in one mood: there's genuine humour (not just ironic,) and a positive, adventurous feel to much of the music besides the tragedy.

Sorry to hear aboiut your covid, richard ,and I hope you'll soon be on the mend. I'm supposed to have had it last year, though the symptoms didn't match what I was expecting. I did feel nearer to death's door than at any other time in my life, though. It's no fun, and I wish you well.

[oliver sudden]

Maybe I’ll spend my last day of isolation playing the Fourths on my shelf. That would be the two Haitinks; Ormandy; Barshai; Petrenko/Liverpool; and my favorite, Kitaenko/Cologne Gurzenich, in SACD. Of course I won’t, but it would be interesting to audition all of them over a week

I can’t help noticing Kondrashin’s absence from that list. Perhaps you’ve heard it and it wasn’t for you but if you happen not to have heard it then please allow me to recommend it heartily as the next Shosta 4 you should hear. (There’s also an Ančerl which appeared briefly on YouTube and which I count myself fortunate to have downloaded before it disappeared again.)

If I were to spend a period of Covid isolation listening to all my Shostakovich 4s I would probably make sure someone checked in on me at regular intervals!

[edashtav]

Quite. Just listened to last night's Prom. Well worth it and a good interval talk with Tom McKinney chatting to Rosamund Bartlett.

In my case, the simplest way to listen again is to go via the Sounds app on my TV which thence feeds through an optical cable to my amp and speakers. The resulting sound is excellent - at least as good if not better than broadcast DAB.

Indeed, a fine interval talk although whether one can describe it as 'chatting' when in the presence of the roving incisive brain of Rosamund Bartlett, I don't know.

[EnemyoftheStoat]

As far as I’m concerned if the conductor does not give a jolly big cue for that moment then it is their own jolly fault if it doesn’t happen.

At least it’s not a proper (two-cymbal) clash but just a whack with a timp stick (in the score, anyway). So there’s a bit less that can go wrong.

(I’m not a percussionist but am occasionally called upon to play percussion and the last time I played a cymbal clash I turned one of them inside out )

Next time you should try to get them to stick together.

I agree about the conductor cue though; it should almost be muscular memory.

[edashtav]

[...,]0I’m a bit baffled by edash comments on the Shostakovich 4. Did I misinterpret or does he think that this a piece of Soviet agitpro

Sorry to hear about your illnessi.Richard - get well soon. ( I caught Covid in Hospital just as I thought I was 'on the mend'. It was a hammer blow...)

No. Is my answer. AGIT PROP works well through theatre , mass songs and posters. Shostakovich's AGIT PROP Symphony was no. 2 which he came to despise. No.4 does hint at mass songs, montage and the quick cinematic cutting from one scene to another but it is the Soviet composer's answer to Agit Prop and, as such , a danger to the composer himself.

[richardfinegold]

Sorry to hear about your illnessi.Richard - get well soon. ( I caught Covid in Hospital just as I thought I was 'on the mend'. It was a hammer blow...)

No. Is my answer. AGIT PROP works well through theatre , mass songs and posters. Shostakovich's AGIT PROP Symphony was no. 2 which he came to despise. No.4 does hint at mass songs, montage and the quick cinematic cutting from one scene to another but it is the Soviet composer's answer to Agit Prop and, as such , a danger to the composer himself.

OK, I essentially concur. Four fascinates me the more I listen to it as a transitional work, both in his musical development nad possibily politically as well.

[richardfinegold]

I can’t help noticing Kondrashin’s absence from that list. Perhaps you’ve heard it and it wasn’t for you but if you happen not to have heard it then please allow me to recommend it heartily as the next Shosta 4 you should hear. (There’s also an Ančerl which appeared briefly on YouTube and which I count myself fortunate to have downloaded before it disappeared again.)

If I were to spend a period of Covid isolation listening to all my Shostakovich 4s I would probably make sure someone checked in on me at regular intervals!

Maybe it's the Covid, but I'm mixed up. I thought I had given Kondrashin a few listens in this work a couple of years ago but it might be the Mahler 61. My CDs are upstairs and I am quarantining in the basement so I will hav e to wait a few days to check

[HighlandDougie]

There are at least four Kondrashin performances on CD. They start with the live recording of the first performance on 30 December 1961 (Moscow Conservatory Records), then there is the 1962 version (referred to elsewhere as 1966 but almost certainly recorded very soon after the first performance) recording which was originally a Melodiya release but which has been remastered by, inter alia, Aulos (DSD from the original Melodiya tapes), Melodiya itself, High Definition Tape Transfers, a "new mastering" in 2022 by Alexandre Bak (available on Qobuz) etc etc. I would guess that it's this performance to which Oliver refers. Third is the German premiere of 23 February 1963 with the Dresden Staatskapelle - in good mono sound and fourth is with the Concertgebouw on 10 October 1971 - in good stereo.

If recording quality is an issue, I would point Richard in the direction of the very fine Andris Nelsons/Boston SO issue. I haven't attempted to count them but I must have at least 30 recordings of this symphony

[Pulcinella]

That performance came on the day Navalny died and proved once again the eternal topicality of Shostakovich and his music.

I'm not sure I heard that, but I'm reminded now of the fact that his CBSO performance is coupled with Britten's Russian Funeral, which woukd have been a wonderful addition to the programme.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8921314--shostakovich-symphony-no-4-op-43-britten-russian-funeral

[oliver sudden]

There are at least four Kondrashin performances on CD. They start with the live recording of the first performance on 30 December 1961 (Moscow Conservatory Records), then there is the 1962 version (referred to elsewhere as 1966 but almost certainly recorded very soon after the first performance) recording which was originally a Melodiya release but which has been remastered by, inter alia, Aulos (DSD from the original Melodiya tapes), Melodiya itself, High Definition Tape Transfers, a "new mastering" in 2022 by Alexandre Bak (available on Qobuz) etc etc. I would guess that it's this performance to which Oliver refers. Third is the German premiere of 23 February 1963 with the Dresden Staatskapelle - in good mono sound and fourth is with the Concertgebouw on 10 October 1971 - in good stereo.

If recording quality is an issue, I would point Richard in the direction of the very fine Andris Nelsons/Boston SO issue. I haven't attempted to count them but I must have at least 30 recordings of this symphony

It was indeed the ‘official’ recording to which I was referring. I first made its acquaintance in the late 80s or early 90s in the Chant du Monde release, on which the Aulos set was an enormous improvement. I haven’t worried about acquiring later remasterings. (I have the Dresden on CD, and the others of which you speak tucked away on a hard drive.)