Prom 5: Schoenberg / Zemlinsky, BBC NOW, Bancroft

[bluestateprommer]

Monday 22 July 2024
19:30
Royal Albert Hall

Schoenberg: Pelleas und Melisande, op. 5

Interval

Zemlinsky: Die Seejungfrau (The Mermaid)

BBC National Orchestra of Wales
Ryan Bancroft, conductor

https://www.bbc.co.uk/events/ezp4mb

https://www.royalalberthall.com/tickets/proms/bbc-proms-24/prom-5/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00214gk

[smittims]

I hope this concert will win new listeners for both composers, with two of their most approachable and enjoyable works. The blurb will probably tell us that Mathilde Schoenberg was Zemlinsky's sister.

[bluestateprommer]

Very fine reading of Schoenberg's Pelleas und Melisande from the BBC NOW and Ryan B., which sounded very good to me, granted that I'm not tremendously familiar with the work. With Penny Gore in the presenter's chair, this is definitely an aficionado's Prom for radio audiences.

On smittims' point about winning new fans for these composers (and these works), I glanced at the RAH's site for ticket availability, and scads of seats looked available. The BBC NOW / RB Verdi Requiem tomorrow night is sold out, by contrast.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Very fine reading of Schoenberg's Pelleas und Melisande from the BBC NOW and Ryan B., which sounded very good to me, granted that I'm not tremendously familiar with the work. With Penny Gore in the presenter's chair, this is definitely an aficionado's Prom for radio audiences.

On smittims' point about winning new fans for these composers (and these works), I glanced at the RAH's site for ticket availability, and scads of seats looked available. The BBC NOW / RB Verdi Requiem tomorrow night is sold out, by contrast.

Yes BSP absolutely superb performance of a masterpiece - and Penny has calmed things down from Friday admirably and now following up with an intelligent interval interview,

[edashtav]

'Two monumental tearjerkers' somebody wrote in the BBC's introduction to this concert. I fear nobody consulted Ryan Bancroft , the conductor and inspiration behind this concert. His interpretation minimised sentimentality as he maintained a good momentum and preferred structural coherence to glorying in the moment.
The work has plenty of ideas but they are brief motifs and Schoenberg does not allow them to blossom into memorable tunes in the manner adopted by Richard Strauss in his exemplary series of symphonic poems which Schoenberg undoubtedly knew.

I've heard the work a handful of times but always find it hard work and have never acquired a recording of it because while I admire it as a well-wrought piece , I can live without it.

The BBC NOW under Ryan Bancroft gave a well-prepared, transparent reading of the score but not a memorable one for this listener.

[Ein Heldenleben]

'Two monumental tearjerkers' somebody wrote in the BBC's introduction to this concert. I fear nobody consulted Ryan Bancroft , the conductor and inspiration behind this concert. His interpretation minimised sentimentality as he maintained a good momentum and preferred structural coherence to glorying in the moment.
The work has plenty of ideas but they are brief motifs and Schoenberg does not allow them to blossom into memorable tunes in the manner adopted by Richard Strauss in his exemplary series of symphonic poems which Schoenberg undoubtedly knew.

I've heard the work a handful of times but always find it hard work and have never acquired a recording of it because while I admire it as a well-wrought piece , I can live without it.

The BBC NOW under Ryan Bancroft gave a well-prepared, transparent reading of the score but not a memorable one for this listener.

According to Penny both Pelleas and Mermaid were a response to or heavily influenced by Ein Heldenleben no less.

[bluestateprommer]

The BBC NOW's and RB's Die Seejungfrau just finished, again a very fine performance, with this concert clearly a labor of love for Ryan B., as he mentioned in his pre-concert comments and his long-standing wish to recreate the premiere concert for both works. Interesting to hear the whoops and cheers from the audience for sections of the orchestra during the curtain calls, which I don't recall hearing in the Halle or the First Night Proms from the past few days (or maybe I just wasn't listening all that carefully).

[edashtav]

Zemlinsky is a wonderful orchestrator and Die Seejingfrau shows how much he owed to Richard Strauss. Both composers loved big tunes and scored them in ways that amplified their virtues.
Zemlinsky's textures are soufflés , full of air, whereas Strauss's are full-fat Bavarian gateaux.

This Proms performance danced along and was persuasive and delightful.

[teamsaint]

'Two monumental tearjerkers' somebody wrote in the BBC's introduction to this concert. I fear nobody consulted Ryan Bancroft , the conductor and inspiration behind this concert. His interpretation minimised sentimentality as he maintained a good momentum and preferred structural coherence to glorying in the moment.
The work has plenty of ideas but they are brief motifs and Schoenberg does not allow them to blossom into memorable tunes in the manner adopted by Richard Strauss in his exemplary series of symphonic poems which Schoenberg undoubtedly knew.

I've heard the work a handful of times but always find it hard work and have never acquired a recording of it because while I admire it as a well-wrought piece , I can live without it.

The BBC NOW under Ryan Bancroft gave a well-prepared, transparent reading of the score but not a memorable one for this listener.

I think this was by far the most enjoyable experience of the work I have had. Like you Ed,I tend to struggle with it, but this felt, exactly as you put it, transparent.
i may listen again.

And I hope you are ok after your fall now.

A Fall Prom, in honour of Mark E Smith. Now there is something Jarvis Cocker could usefully get to work on…..

[smittims]

I'm afraid I must disagree with you again, edashtav. I've always found Pelleas und Melisande full of lovely tunes, a good many more than in Debussy's opera which I also love; granted that Debussy was not after melody in his work, whereas Schoenberg always was, throughout his career.

In a note written 47 years later, he said that he had originally intended to write an opera, not knowing of Debussy's , and that he still regretted not doing so. He said he might have missed the special perfume of the play , but would have made his characters 'more singing'.

[Paŭlo]

The BBC NOW's and RB's Die Seejungfrau just finished, again a very fine performance, with this concert clearly a labor of love for Ryan B., as he mentioned in his pre-concert comments and his long-standing wish to recreate the premiere concert for both works. Interesting to hear the whoops and cheers from the audience for sections of the orchestra during the curtain calls, which I don't recall hearing in the Halle or the First Night Proms from the past few days (or maybe I just wasn't listening all that carefully).

Just on the whoops and cheers point: I think the orchestra had definitely brought some fans with them :) And it was probably more noticeable because the hall was only about one quarter full. In contrast, from near the front of the arena during Prom 4, the noise from the crowd was more like a wall of sound, even if there had been "whoops and cheers" they probably wouldn't have been distinguishable.

[edashtav]

I'm afraid I must disagree with you again, edashtav. I've always found Pelleas und Melisande full of lovely tunes, a good many more than in Debussy's opera which I also love; granted that Debussy was not after melody in his work, whereas Schoenberg always was, throughout his career.

In a note written 47 years later, he said that he had originally intended to write an opera, not knowing of Debussy's , and that he still regretted not doing so. He said he might have missed the special perfume of the play , but would have made his characters 'more singing'.

If there are tunes in the Schoenberg, they are short , vestigial, chromatic motifs such as the ubiquitous one associated with Melisande.

I see Pelleas and Melisande as a failed experiment from which the composer learned much. I'm sure we agree that later works are very linear and melodic even if some of the wide intervals which AS employs are difficult to pitch and take listeners some time to appreciate.

I have a score of Debussy's opera and find it full of fragrant delicate melodies , smittims.

Chacun a son gout or French words to that effect- I was/am useless at French and came bottom of 146 boys in an examination!

[Serial_Apologist]

It's a pity we haven't got ahinton* coming on here to defend Pelleas und Melisande, for all its gloopy orchestration, the way he once did on here when I wrote in saying it was one of the few works by my most important 20the century composer that I disliked. Edashtav's comparative descriptions of Strauss's and Zemlinsky's orchestrations are brilliant, I couldn't have put it better; however the Love Scene, which begins roughly halfway through Pelleas, is surely a melody if ever there was one - and it's a good example of Wagnerian Unendliche Melodie.

*Where is he - I miss his erudite pronouncements.

[smittims]

Just a note for anyone planning to hear the repeat this afternoon. The on-line schedule says it starts at 2.25 but Choral Evensong is at 3 so the Schoenberg must start about 1.15 if we're to hear both works complete.

[richardfinegold]

There must have been a lot of rehearsals involved for this program of 2 demanding but relatively infrequently programmed works.
I have been listening to a bit of Schoenberg, in response to his anniversary. I tend to agree with edash re Pelleas. I can’t stop comparing him with Debussy in that work