Prom 5: Schoenberg / Zemlinsky, BBC NOW, Bancroft

[Serial_Apologist]

There must have been a lot of rehearsals involved for this program of 2 demanding but relatively infrequently programmed works.
I have been listening to a bit of Schoenberg, in response to his anniversary. I tend to agree with edash re Pelleas. I can’t stop comparing him with Debussy in that work

Fascinating though to make comparisons between major works with the same title from the two main traditions that within just a few years were to powerfully inform, many say divide, the evolution of 20th century music though.

[edashtav]

It's a pity we haven't got ahinton* coming on here to defend Pelleas und Melisande, for all its gloopy orchestration, the way he once did on here when I wrote in saying it was one of the few works by my most important 20the century composer that I disliked. Edashtav's comparative descriptions of Strauss's and Zemlinsky's orchestrations are brilliant, I couldn't have put it better; however the Love Scene, which begins roughly halfway through Pelleas, is surely a melody if ever there was one - and it's a good example of Wagnerian Unendliche Melodie.

*Where is he - I miss his erudite pronouncements.

I've reviewed the Love Scene and concluded that it's a long way from Serialism and much closer to Wagner and melody without end. I plead guilty to getting an 'idée fixe' early on in the work and sticking to it. The last gasp of extreme tonality before atonality made a bid for power?

[smittims]

I've just heard the repeat of the Schoenberg (I'm just about to hear the Zemlinsky) and I'm pleased to say it was possibly the most passionately-committed performance I've ever heard of this wonderful work; a truly thrilling occasion. Congratulations ot Ryan Bancroft and his orchestra. I loved the way he made the brass 'snarl' and brought out the important bass lines in the score (e.g. the pedal point in the first half of the love scene). It was a performance to set alongside those by the many eminent conductors who've been attracted to the work, for instance Mirtropoulos, Barbirolli, Boulez and Karajan.

Yes , it sounded well-rehearsed, but I guess they have played it a few times before they take it to a Prom.

[Serial_Apologist]

I've just heard the repeat of the Schoenberg (I'm just about to hear the Zemlinsky) and I'm pleased to say it was possibly the most passionately-committed performance I've ever heard of this wonderful work; a truly thrilling occasion. Congratulations ot Ryan Bancroft and his orchestra. I loved the way he made the brass 'snarl' and brought out the important bass lines in the score (e.g. the pedal point in the first half of the love scene). It was a performance to set alongside those by the many eminent conductors who've been attracted to the work, for instance Mirtropoulos, Barbirolli, Boulez and Karajan.

Yes , it sounded well-rehearsed, but I guess they have played it a few times before they take it to a Prom.

I hope you will like the Zemlinsky as well then. It's lightweight compared with the Schoenberg - for all his relationship with Mahler, both direct and intermediated (!), the latter's idiomatic influence and any equivalence in terms of depth and structural complexity, either to Mahler or Schoenberg, would only start to come through with the Second String Quartet composed some nine years after The Mermaid after a period of study at the School of Hard Knocks, but the orchestration is glorious, I think.

[smittims]

Yes, the Zemlinsky had an equally-fine performance. I was familar with the work from a Radio 3 broadcast some years ago by the Suisse Romande Orchestra.

[Pulcinella]

I must confess that I thought the programme did not have enough contrast in it to appeal, but having read the comments here I might well dig out my recordings (easier than navigating Sounds) and listen to them again.

I have this Conlon recording of the Zemlinsky (though as part of a 2CD EMI set): any comments on its worth?

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9259269--zemlinsky-die-seejungfrau-sinfonietta-op-23

[richardfinegold]

I appreciate the dedication of the conductor but it is telling that the audience was only 25% capacity. Schoenberg is having a big anniversary year, and was featured on the cover of Gramophone recently, but it seems that his star does shine as bright in the firmament as it did 50 years ago. These things run in cycles and perhaps he will make a 'comeback', but another important and contemporary of AS that seems to have almost fallen off the edge of theMusical World is Hindemith. I don't suspect that AS will go into that much of a musical eclipse

[Nick Armstrong]

'Two monumental tearjerkers' somebody wrote in the BBC's introduction to this concert

Yes, I just noticed that the Radio Times listing for yesterday’s afternoon repeat bills the concert dismissively as “a couple of connected tearjerkers” … Who writes this guff?!

Looking forward to getting round to hearing both - so far, I’ve only listened to the first few minutes of P&M, a work I’ve enjoyed since acquiring the Karajan recording decades ago (I think it was coupled with Verklärte Nacht, the reason I bought it). It’s always struck me how similar the opening is to the Debussy version in terms of tone - not surprising in a way given the source material I suppose, but given that it doesn’t seem that Arnold S knew the French work (I’m open to correction on this), I still find it remarkable

.

[Master Jacques]

Yes, I just noticed that in the Radio Times listing for yesterday’s afternoon repeat bills the concert dismissively as “a couple of connected tearjerkers” … Who writes this guff?!

Looking forward to getting round to hearing both - so far, I’ve only listened to the first few minutes of P&M, a work I’ve enjoyed since acquiring the Karajan recording decades ago (I think it was coupled with Verklärte Nacht, the reason I bought it). It’s always struck me how similar the opening is to the Debussy version in terms of tone - not surprising in a way given the source material I suppose, but given that it doesn’t seem that Arnold S knew the French work (I’m open to correction on this), I still find it remarkable

Given that Schoenberg referred to the opera analytically in an essay critical of Debussy, he must have known the score, though according to Robert Henderson (in his essay on the influence of D on S) he pointedly stayed away from its 1910 Vienna stage premiere. No doubt he'd bought the score, though, when the opera was first published.

After liking Debussy's works at first, he gradually became embittered, and in later years disparaged the Russian influence on Debussy, feeling that he ought to have stuck to Teutonic models.

[Master Jacques]

I appreciate the dedication of the conductor but it is telling that the audience was only 25% capacity. Schoenberg is having a big anniversary year, and was featured on the cover of Gramophone recently, but it seems that his star does shine as bright in the firmament as it did 50 years ago. These things run in cycles and perhaps he will make a 'comeback', but another important and contemporary of AS that seems to have almost fallen off the edge of theMusical World is Hindemith. I don't suspect that AS will go into that much of a musical eclipse

I fear he's already eclipsed in the orchestral concert hall. Not that he was ever a 'draw', alas. Hindemith on the other hand is enjoying a notable revival in Germany, though, with many of his operas being re-evaluated, as well as the concertos and chamber works.

[Nick Armstrong]

Given that Schoenberg referred to the opera analytically in an essay critical of Debussy, he must have known the score, though according to Robert Henderson (in his essay on the influence of D on S) he pointedly stayed away from its 1910 Vienna stage premiere. No doubt he'd bought the score, though, when the opera was first published.

After liking Debussy's works at first, he gradually became embittered, and in later years disparaged the Russian influence on Debussy, feeling that he ought to have stuck to Teutonic models.

[Serial_Apologist]

Given that Schoenberg referred to the opera analytically in an essay critical of Debussy, he must have known the score, though according to Robert Henderson (in his essay on the influence of D on S) he pointedly stayed away from its 1910 Vienna stage premiere. No doubt he'd bought the score, though, when the opera was first published.

After liking Debussy's works at first, he gradually became embittered, and in later years disparaged the Russian influence on Debussy, feeling that he ought to have stuck to Teutonic models.

Well thanks for this information, MJ - I hadn't realised that about Schoenberg's views on Debussy, though they do make sense in his terms of reference.

[smittims]

As I said in message #10, Schoenberg specifically stated in a 1950 note that at the time he wrote his work he didn't know Debussy's opera. I think this is credible. One of his sketches is dated 4 July 1902. Debussy's opera had been premiered in Paris on 30 April, but was not played outside Paris until 1907 when it was staged in Brussels. The score was first published in 1904.

[Master Jacques]

As I said in message #10, Schoenberg specifically stated in a 1950 note that at the time he wrote his work he didn't know Debussy's opera. I think this is credible. One of his sketches is dated 4 July 1902. Debussy's opera had been premiered in Paris on 30 April, but was not played outside Paris until 1907 when it was staged in Brussels. The score was first published in 1904.

Thank you for this: I should have made it clearer, that Schoenberg certainly began work on his Pélléas before knowing Debussy's opera: the dates are very clear.

The question I addressed, was whether he got to know it later, which he most certainly did.

[Belgrove]

…
The question I addressed, was whether he got to know it later, which he most certainly did.

I wonder if Debussy heard Arnold’s take on the subject, and if so, what he thought of it? Possibly not sufficiently Russian (😉)?