Prom 30: Rachmaninov’s Second Piano Concerto - 6 August 2023

[LeWoiDeWeigate]

... I had thought Lili Boulanger's music feeble, but John Wilson gave it some strength there. ...

I direct you to her 'Hymne au Soleil' which I can assure you is anything BUT feeble to sing or listen to when it hits a Spinal Tap 11!

[smittims]

Thank you for your advice.

[Nick Armstrong]

Odd prominence given to triviality on today’s BBC News homepage:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-66615296

[Pulcinella]

Odd prominence given to triviality on today’s BBC News homepage:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-66615296

I love this bit, though:

Asked if he'd had other plans for the weekend, he replied: "Yes, I was going to cook myself a nice dinner and listen to Ben Grosvenor on the radio."

[Nick Armstrong]

I love this bit, though:

Asked if he'd had other plans for the weekend, he replied: "Yes, I was going to cook myself a nice dinner and listen to Ben Grosvenor on the radio."

[Nachtigall]

Odd prominence given to triviality on today’s BBC News homepage:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-66615296

All part of the BBC's manic desire to popularise (vulgarise?) everything. The TV commentators, led by Petroc Trelawney, naturally made great play of the Rachmaninov's association with Brief Encounter and other popular media. What's wrong with appreciating the music on its own terms, I ask? Another annoyance (to me!) was Trelawney's persistent mispronunciation of Rachmaninov as Rack-maninov. Sloppiness. Then we had Tom Service in overdrive (though when is he not?).

[Ein Heldenleben]

Odd prominence given to triviality on today’s BBC News homepage:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-66615296

I don’t think the story trivial unlike a lot of stuff on that page - generally to be found on the lifestyle section. With my perverse news judgment I think the replacement of Ben Grosvenor with a Leeds prize winner at the Proms a major story which perhaps explains why I got out of that genre of journalism ASAP. That and the fact that it’s ludicrously stressful.
But not as stressful as playing the opening of that concerto in front of 5,000 . I’d noticed that he played the big opening left hand chords ( which stretch a tenth on the keyboard) not by arpeggiating the chords . That’s what most smaller handed players do - like Ashkenazy for example. Instead he did a sort of appoggiatura into the top part of the chord. Not sure that works really. I wonder if he can stretch those chords but decided not to risk smudging the notes ? I don’t blame him. He played the piece really well.

[Nachtigall]

Instead he did a sort of appoggiatura into the top part of the chord. Not sure that works really. I wonder if he can stretch those chords but decided not to risk smudging the notes ? I don’t blame him. He played the piece really well.

I agree and the Firebird transcription was stunning. I wonder about the appoggiatura approach to the opening chords – isn't that a common practice? I must check but I had a feeling that even Rachmaninov himself played the low F fractionally before the rest of the chord.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I agree and the Firebird transcription was stunning. I wonder about the appoggiatura approach to the opening chords – isn't that a common practice? I must check but I had a feeling that even Rachmaninov himself played the low F fractionally before the rest of the chord.

Some arpeggiate and some play the whole chord. Just checked SR’s own performance and in fact he plays it exactly like Abel ! Obviously it’s the other way around - homage to the master . Funnily enough Rachmaninov could stretch an octave and a fifth and would have had no problem playing them as a block chord.

Of nugatory interest but I can just about play the chords without breaking them . That’s the easy(ish) bit - Then the problems begin and mount up with cascades of seriously fiddly bits.

[Nachtigall]

Of nugatory interest but I can just about play the chords without breaking them . That’s the easy(ish) bit - Then the problems begin and mount up with cascades of seriously fiddly bits.

The critical chord is in the second bar where D flat is played against C – surprised you can manage that without breaking the chord. But yes, I checked Rachmaninov's recording and he breaks some but not all of the chords, with the low F played subtly in advance of the remainder of the chord. I give up after the opening chords and take the movement up again with the second subject!

[Nick Armstrong]

I don’t think the story trivial unlike a lot of stuff on that page

The headline was about his ‘shaky’ hands… … which they weren’t particularly (having watched the performance).

It strikes me as a bizarre thing to say (and odd to include as one of - what? - just a dozen or so “world headlines” on their homepage…)

[Ein Heldenleben]

The headline was about his ‘shaky’ hands… … which they weren’t particularly (having watched the performance).

It strikes me as a bizarre thing to say (and odd to include as one of - what? - just a dozen or so “world headlines” on their homepage…)

Yes I noticed that as well - they weren’t shaking much at
all. Compared to most of the tedious wokery and indulgence of self declared “victims” below the virtual fold on that page the story came as a blessed relief .

[Ein Heldenleben]

The critical chord is in the second bar where D flat is played against C – surprised you can manage that without breaking the chord. But yes, I checked Rachmaninov's recording and he breaks some but not all of the chords, with the low F played subtly in advance of the remainder of the chord. I give up after the opening chords and take the movement up again with the second subject!

Yes I can do that - if anything the major sixth in the following bar is , for me , more difficult.The real problem is getting any tone control behind the locked fingers in the chords.
Yes I used to be a leap straight to Eflat big tune merchant as well. However if you ignore the number of notes on the page the piano part isn’t as hideously difficult as it looks. One problem is that those arpeggios behind the big orchestral tune are written as quavers but they aren’t really. They are nine notes to the minim for the first part of the bar and eight to the second. Then when you’ve worked that out you have to decide how to split the notes between the hands . And they don’t fall that neatly.
Then just to crank things up you end up playing true quavers in the right hand (part chords ) against the nine / eight note split in the left. In short a nightmare. Then just when the hands are used to all these arpeggios these some very fast scaly passage work that really needs to glitter - although it sort of lies under the hands better. I don’t think I’ll ever be able to play it.

[Nick Armstrong]

I thought this the best performance of the Rachmaninov second concerto I've heard for many years

I’ve now listened to this twice (one on the radio transmission, once via the television relay). Although I agree that the pianist’s performance was stellar, I have to say I didn’t enjoy Wilson’s way with some of the orchestral phrasing - some glissandi which to me sounded mannered rather than idiomatic…. dare I say that some phrases sounded more like Ketelby (see COTW ‘light music’ thread) than Rachmaninov. (Yes, I know that back in the day, orchestral playing was apparently more like that… but still, listening in 2023, I didn’t enjoy that aspect of the performance).

[smittims]

I was interested to see your reaction. I don't think we're far apart here. I've listened to attempts to reinstate orchestral string portamento over the years, from Barenboim in the seventies to James Judd and others more recently. The difficulty is, of course, that players in the 1920s did it second nature, whereas today they have to do it self-consciously. I have to say I like the way John Wilson does it. But then I'm a fan of the old 'free-style' as my earliest listening was of Weingartner et al. and I'd like to see it revived more.