Prom 26: Barry/Walton/Sibelius, BBC Philharmonic, Ehnes/Storgårds

[HighlandDougie]

Pace Ed, I put it down to being in the wrong frame of mind/mood - and I could entirely see what Barry was trying to ... not 'achieve' exactly (wrong word) but 'provoke' (?). But I really hated it. Maybe that was what he was trying to do. I'll give it another listen, though, and see if it has grown on me.

[edashtav]

Pace Ed, I put it down to being in the wrong frame of mind/mood - and I could entirely see what Barry was trying to ... not 'achieve' exactly (wrong word) but 'provoke' (?). But I really hated it. Maybe that was what he was trying to do. I'll give it another listen, though, and see if it has grown on me.

Colin Anderson in his on-line Column penned:
”formless, disturbing, marching sinisterly, always muted with subtle changes of timbre, exclusive to Kafka’s brain, disorientating – that make for compelling listening. A great piece; vintage Barry.”

I wonder how many ‘great’ pieces are formless, HighlandDougie?

[HighlandDougie]

What better way to spend time on a beautiful afternoon - not a cloud in the sky - than have another go listening to the Gerald Barry This time, though, through my proper hi-fi set up. The KEF Reference speakers and the sub-woofer were certainly put to the test - some very low frequencies indeed. And does it improve on rehearing? Yes, so "hate' is no longer my reaction to it. There were times when it reminded me of playing an LP backwards (which is not meant as a criticism). And Morton Feldman and Ligeti briefly sprang to mind but it is very much of its own sound world. I wouldn't have used "formless" as that suggests lacking in shape or purpose. Not sure if "great" would be my considered judgement: certainly "sérieux" (that great French descriptor).

[edashtav]

What better way to spend time on a beautiful afternoon - not a cloud in the sky - than have another go listening to the Gerald Barry This time, though, through my proper hi-fi set up. The KEF Reference speakers and the sub-woofer were certainly put to the test - some very low frequencies indeed. And does it improve on rehearing? Yes, so "hate' is no longer my reaction to it. There were times when it reminded me of playing an LP backwards (which is not meant as a criticism). And Morton Feldman and Ligeti briefly sprang to mind but it is very much of its own sound world. I wouldn't have used "formless" as that suggests lacking in shape or purpose. Not sure if "great" would be my considered judgement: certainly "sérieux" (that great French descriptor).

Yes, I thought of Ligeti, too. I wish I knew Feldman’s music better. Great is a risky word to choose of a first performance. ‘Sérieux’ and ‘refléchi’ are useful to show respect and perhaps imply that future hearings and other performances may yield further insights. Thank you for your patient perseverance.

[smittims]

I've stopped saying 'great' in a musical context, as I think the word has come to be used too loosely:

'we 'ad a great time in Benidorm'
'at my school we had a protest against school uniform and everyone skipped lessons. It was great'.

As so often these days, I wonder if some people think about what their words really mean.

[jonfan]

I’ve just caught up with the Phils’ Proms and they are on fire! The Bartok Concerto and the Symphonies by Sibelius and Rachmaninov in particular, top drawer performances. The engineering in RAH has also been first class this season which helps enormously of course. I find the Audio file downloads superb.

[Bryn]

I’ve just caught up with the Phils’ Proms and they are on fire! The Bartok Concerto and the Symphonies by Sibelius and Rachmaninov in particular, top draw performances. The engineering in RAH has also been first class this season which helps enormously of course. I find the Audio file downloads superb.

Indeed. Thank goodness the disastrous decision of 12 years ago, to outsource the audio engineering to a company specialising in team sports broadcasting, has been learned from.

[Sir Velo]

, top draw performances.

A real palette of sounds eh?

[Pulcinella]

A real palette of sounds eh?

Maybe it drew a lot of people?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Indeed. Thank goodness the disastrous decision of 12 years ago, to outsource the audio engineering to a company specialising in team sports broadcasting, has been learned from.

There have been some really excellent sound mixes this year. The group of people who do the Radio 3 sound balances are pretty much the same group who’ve always done them though the names change over the years - there are one or two names I recognise from the 80’s who’ve clearly been promoted .
According to a Broadcast sound article I posted a couple of years ago the TV sound mix is done separatelly. . The TV people use a Decca tree to create a “wider than the speakers (or more likely sound bar) “ effect. I’m guessing that a lot of them will be ex BBC or ITV Outside Broadcast people who specialised in music balances though they may well have done other work as there isn’t enough classical music work around . Even that might have changed with opera and orchestra doing so much streaming these days . Incidentally TV OB sport sound can be very demanding . Trying to create an accurate sound portrait of a golf tournament or the Grand National is a real skill - you might be handling 50 plus sound sources. Though covering a snooker tournament is perhaps less so.
The one thing I’ve noticed in going to the Proms is the much more complex mic arrays these days - plenty of spot mic’ing on individual instruments. I suspect they still use sound field mics (that have remotely adjustable polar diagrams ) as the main balance mics but they are so high in the arena I’m just guessing. The technological advances these days are staggering. I used a zoom mic the other day ( cost £80) couldn’t believe how good it was - though my ears aren’t what they used to be.

[jonfan]

When I’ve been in the hall during the Proms in previous years I’ve noticed mics positioned well back over the Arena though this year I didn’t notice any further back than a ‘tree’ just behind the conductor. I wonder if resonance is added to the mix? I’m really enjoying the clarity of the sound this year but there’s still a sense of space.

[Ein Heldenleben]

When I’ve been in the hall during the Proms in previous years I’ve noticed mics positioned well back over the Arena though this year I didn’t notice any further back than a ‘tree’ just behind the conductor. I wonder if resonance is added to the mix? I’m really enjoying the clarity of the sound this year but there’s still a sense of space.

Yes there will usually be so called space mikes for precisely that purpose. The problem at the Albert Hall is more about reducing the amount of resonance - or getting more direct sound than reflected . It’s one of those halls where for most of the seats you get “better “ sound at home if by better you mean the ability to hear the wood wind and get some sense of the orchestral layout.

[Bryn]

There have been some really excellent sound mixes this year. The group of people who do the Radio 3 sound balances are pretty much the same group who’ve always done them though the names change over the years - there are one or two names I recognise from the 80’s who’ve clearly been promoted .
According to a Broadcast sound article I posted a couple of years ago the TV sound mix is done separatelly. . The TV people use a Decca tree to create a “wider than the speakers (or more likely sound bar) “ effect. I’m guessing that a lot of them will be ex BBC or ITV Outside Broadcast people who specialised in music balances though they may well have done other work as there isn’t enough classical music work around . Even that might have changed with opera and orchestra doing so much streaming these days . Incidentally TV OB sport sound can be very demanding . Trying to create an accurate sound portrait of a golf tournament or the Grand National is a real skill - you might be handling 50 plus sound sources. Though covering a snooker tournament is perhaps less so.
The one thing I’ve noticed in going to the Proms is the much more complex mic arrays these days - plenty of spot mic’ing on individual instruments. I suspect they still use sound field mics (that have remotely adjustable polar diagrams ) as the main balance mics but they are so high in the arena I’m just guessing. The technological advances these days are staggering. I used a zoom mic the other day ( cost £80) couldn’t believe how good it was - though my ears aren’t what they used to be.

from https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/aboutthe...ent_109752403:

5.

At 17:26 22nd Jul 2011, Rupert Brun wrote: Hello PGP566, thank you for your comment about the dynamic range of Prom 04. There was a technical problem which reduced the dynamic range; it was rectified for subsequent concerts. I would like to apologise for the reduced dynamic range during this concert and assure you it was not intentional.

Rupert Brun
Head of Technology for BBC Audio & Music.

Unfortunately, the Glagolitic Mass Prom of the same year was similarly hit.

At the time of the release of the Hyperion issue of the Brabbins Prom recording, I wrote to the Perrys regarding how well they had to some extent compensated for the restricted dynamic range of what the BBC had been able to provide them with. Their reply confirmed that the dynamic limitation was real and that they were unable to fully restore what the microphones passed to the engineers but had done their best with what the Beeb provided. The outsourcing in 2011 was also confirmed by the BBC at the time.

[Ein Heldenleben]

[QUOTE=Bryn;n1281877]

from https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/aboutthe...ent_109752403:



Unfortunately, the Glagolitic Mass Prom of the same year was similarly hit.


[/QUOTE


Ive posted this before . It’s a truly comprehensive 2014 article on how the Proms Radio and TV sound is done . It’s by Hugh Robjohns - a BBC sound engineer I used to work with and believe me he knows what he’s talking about. Given the complexity of the rig it’s amazing it doesn’t go wrong more often.

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/bbc-proms

[Bryn]

[QUOTE=Ein Heldenleben;n1281880]

from https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/aboutthe...ent_109752403:



Unfortunately, the Glagolitic Mass Prom of the same year was similarly hit.


[/QUOTE


Ive posted this before . It’s a truly comprehensive 2014 article on how the Proms Radio and TV sound is done . It’s by Hugh Robjohns - a BBC sound engineer I used to work with and believe me he knows what he’s talking about. Given the complexity of the rig it’s amazing it doesn’t go wrong more often.

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/bbc-proms

All well and good as far as 2014 is concerned. However, Proms audio engineering was not an in-house operation in 2011. I forget the name of the location sports specialist employed that year but it was much discussed at the time. Their vans outside the back of the RAH made it clear they were not the BBC's.