Prom 12: Helen Grime / Beethoven 9

[JasonPalmer]

I enjoyed watching it on bbc four but think petroc should have worn a shirt with his suit.

[Barbirollians]

I find the element of the Proms audience that insists on applause between movements to be tedious . I should llke it to be announced from the stage whether the performers would prefer they did not applaud between movements and might hope that would be respected . It is striking that it only seems to be at the Proms that this happens regularly.

If that is Helen Grime's idea of joy heavens knows how bad her misery might be . Ghastly meaningless piece. I was distracted to switch to CD on a long car drive and was so drawn in by Annie Fischer playing the Schumann Concerto I forgot all about Beethoven 9 .

Talking of which I should much prefer Beethoven 9 to return to its old penultimate night of the Proms slot .

[Bryn]

Oh, dear. How sad. Never mind.

[Bert Coules]

What I don't like is the conductor slamming into the finale before I've had time to draw breath after the end of the Adagio. Once I even heard it done attacca, just before the last note of the Adagio finished.

I remember Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt doing exactly that at a Prom in (I think) the seventies. I'd never heard it done before and I thought the effect was electrifying. It certainly shook up the audience, which was no bad thing.

[smittims]

Well, I must say I prefer a pause to let the Adagio sink in first, especially if it's been a moving performance.

Until I saw Barbirollians' remark I was wondering if anyone would mention the opening work, or if it was felt to be better forgotten. Admittedly it was a first hearing, and this can be insufficent for a considered view, but it seemed to me to be a dull, bland piece of meandering which didn't suggest 'joy' to me. I sometimes wonder if composers think about how their music will sound to someone else, or if they're too involved in their theories to be bothered. Maybe it's not a good idea to commission a work to preface another work .

[LHC]

I was initially disappointed that the BBC saw fit to cut Helen Grimes' piece from the TV broadcast and only show the Beethoven as I would have preferred to see the whole concert rather than just highlights, but from Smittims' and Barbirollian's comments it appears this might not have been such a bad thing.

Despite Bryn's oft-repeated preference for applause after every movement, the look on Ryan Wigglesworth's face at the end of the adagio when the audience started to applaud suggested he is not a fan.

Incidentally, at the end of the concert Petroc suggested that all the new commissions would be excised from the TV broadcasts of the relevant concerts and collected together in a one-off broadcast where they can be safely avoided by those allergic to new music.

[Bryn]

"Despite Bryn's oft-repeated preference for applause . . . "

Not a preference but a tolerance. I tend not to do it, myself. I just accept that there are clear historical justifications and find audience and other incidental noises during a movement far more concerning.

[smittims]

Yes, in previous years the new pieces have been televised in a separate compilation programme. I'm not sure this is a good idea: it suggests a ghetto. William Glock used to programme new music surrounded by 'old' music (of various centuries ) and it worked well.

[kernelbogey]

Apart from the well-known (and historical) reservations about LvB's 9th, in particular the mix of three instrumental movements with an orchestral and choral fourth, I think that the adoption of the choral section of IV as the 'anthem' of the European Union - and btw I am an ardent Remainer - has permanently changed at least my perception of the whole work. What was a sequence of noble ideas (and ideals) for Schiller and Beethoven has become politcised in some way, distorting the original idealstic meanings. I watched and listened on tv to the whole of this performance, and I came away feeling it was somewhat routine. What I mean, in this context, as 'routine' is that the performance would have to be seriously electrifying to be for me more than routine. I generally listen to, or watch, performances of my favourite Beethoven symphonies as infrequently as possible, because my hearing of them can become somehow routine (or perhaps predictable) in my head. So I am writing in very personal (arguably solipsistic) terms about this performance. I'm glad others enjoyed it - particualrly those in the Hall who showed their appreciation by applause between movements.

[Master Jacques]

More "disrespectful" than any applauding between movements of the Sacred Beast of Beethoven's 9th (which doesn't bother me, or - I dare say - any of the musicians one bit) is Radio 3's imbecilic decision to give us a break between Helen Grime's Meditations on Joy and the Sacred Beast itself, by playing a bit of Renée Fleming in a scene from Peter Grimes. Which intern thought that one up? They'd be better off just broadcasting audience mumbles in the hall, if they can't be bothered to seek out a relevant talk from the archives.

[kernelbogey]

'They'd be better off just broadcasting audience mumbles in the hall....'
Wouldn't that be great?

[Ein Heldenleben]

More "disrespectful" than any applauding between movements of the Sacred Beast of Beethoven's 9th (which doesn't bother me, or - I dare say - any of the musicians one bit) is Radio 3's imbecilic decision to give us a break between Helen Grime's Meditations on Joy and the Sacred Beast itself, by playing a bit of Renée Fleming in a scene from Peter Grimes. Which intern thought that one up? They'd be better off just broadcasting audience mumbles in the hall, if they can't be bothered to seek out a relevant talk from the archives.

Don’t know who decided that but it would not have been an “intern” but a moderately well paid producer or announcer. A typical job for some one on work experience or entry level runner would be getting coffees and sandwiches , greeting and escorting artists or , for those with score reading ability - bar counting off the score.

[oddoneout]

Apart from the well-known (and historical) reservations about LvB's 9th, in particular the mix of three instrumental movements with an orchestral and choral fourth, I think that the adoption of the choral section of IV as the 'anthem' of the European Union - and btw I am an ardent Remainer - has permanently changed at least my perception of the whole work. What was a sequence of noble ideas (and ideals) for Schiller and Beethoven has become politcised in some way, distorting the original idealstic meanings. I watched and listened on tv to the whole of this performance, and I came away feeling it was somewhat routine. What I mean, in this context, as 'routine' is that the performance would have to be seriously electrifying to be for me more than routine. I generally listen to, or watch, performances of my favourite Beethoven symphonies as infrequently as possible, because my hearing of them can become somehow routine (or perhaps predictable) in my head. So I am writing in very personal (arguably solipsistic) terms about this performance. I'm glad others enjoyed it - particualrly those in the Hall who showed their appreciation by applause between movements.

The Ode to Joy has never been something I particularly like - broadcasts of LvB 9 tend to get edited I'm afraid - and like you feel the EU adoption has done it no favours. However, thanks(!) to Covid I did hear a performance of it which I enjoyed. Masaaki Suzuki organised a global online performance( I think it was part of a festival in Japan), which two family members were involved in. I managed to see the video a couple of times before it was removed from public(or possibly just free) view. It gave meaning to the ideas and ideals to see musicians from around the world contributing, and one just had to be in awe of the organisation and commitment involved by all concerned, performing and filming in their homes at a time when it was all less familiar than now.

[Master Jacques]

Don’t know who decided that but it would not have been an “intern” but a moderately well paid producer or announcer. A typical job for some one on work experience or entry level runner would be getting coffees and sandwiches , greeting and escorting artists or , for those with score reading ability - bar counting off the score.

I know. I was just insulting the well-paid producer, who clearly has the mindset of somebody who is not ... well, "invested" in quality over convenience!

[Ein Heldenleben]

I know. I was just insulting the well-paid producer, who clearly has the mindset of somebody who is not ... well, "invested" in quality over convenience!

To be honest some interns are more “invested” than some of the old lags. It was certainly a weird interpolation. Do you think it went Grime ? Oh yes Grimes …Even by the standards these days it’s a spurious link.

[Master Jacques]

To be honest some interns are more “invested” than some of the old lags. It was certainly a weird interpolation. Do you think it went Grime ? Oh yes Grimes …Even by the standards these days it’s a spurious link.

I only wish that I hadn't had exactly the same thought progression as you. Grime ... Grimes! ... Grim!!!

[smittims]

I've noticed that at more recent Proms (e.g.the John Wilson), there's been less, or no between-movements applause . Has someone said something ?

[Barbirollians]

None in the NYO Prom either as I recall.