Is tripartisanship over the SNP's bid to retain the £ bullying?

[Serial_Apologist]

Whichever side one supports in the current row between Westminster and Edinburgh, given the existence of a common currency region of the EU, the cross-party line-up against the Scots retaining the Pound would seem, at best, at odds with what is feasible, politically and economically.

Is the right to retain economic links with a country from which one aims to gain independence a legitimate right of self-determination? And if Scotland is forced into having its own currency, what consequences might there be? Big questions! What do people think?

[MrGongGong]

I think it's all unravelling a bit.
The romantic notion of being independent makes "sense", many of the people I meet who are Scottish DO have a sense of that identity being important.
BUT the economics don't work at all.
So if you think that's important then its a non starter.
I do think the SNP have a bit of a cheek in thinking that they can cherry pick the things they like.
If they want independence then they need to REALLY have it.
What would be more damaging is that if Scotland left the UK we would all have to renegotiate to rejoin the EU which would open the doors to the crazies who think that we can somehow trade with the world without negotiating treaties.

I'm fairly sure the Scottish people won't vote for it
but I wonder whether the English would be keen?

An independent Scotland with the pound would simply mean that the economics are run from London as they are now.

Why can't we vote ?

[Flosshilde]

A common currency region would surely require members to give up economic independence (just look at what's happening in the Eurozone) . Control over taxation & spending is one of the major planks in the argument for independence - so arguing for a currency union would seem to be rather contradictory. & it would surely be difficult for a union of two unequal partners to work.

[Flosshilde]

What would be more damaging is that if Scotland left the UK we would all have to renegotiate to rejoin the EU which would open the doors to the crazies who think that we can somehow trade with the world without negotiating treaties.

I think one of the strong arguments for independence is that it's highly likely that Cameron, through his weakness & vacilation, will bring about a withdrawal from the EU by the UK, even if he wants to stay in. I think (but couldn't quote any statistics just now) that people in Scotland are rather more keen on the EU than people in England; the government certainly is.

[MrGongGong]

I think one of the strong arguments for independence is that it's highly likely that Cameron, through his weakness & vacilation, will bring about a withdrawal from the EU by the UK, even if he wants to stay in. I think (but couldn't quote any statistics just now) that people in Scotland are rather more keen on the EU than people in England; the government certainly is.

I think you are right there.
It would suit Camerons slimy agenda to be able to do that by default rather than by design.
In a kind of "big boy did it and ran away" style.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Remember the Sterling Area? I don't think it would work, because a weaker economy would really feel "bullied" by a stronger one. Think of Germany and Greece in the Eurozone.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

In a kind of "big boy did it and ran away" style.

All bullies are fundamentally cowards.

[jean]

Has everyone forgotten these?

[french frank]

It might have been preferable if this had been pointed out by a Scottish Economist.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

ahem

Daniel Grian Alexander (born 15 May 1972) is a British Liberal Democrat politician who has been Chief Secretary to the Treasury since 2010. He has been the Member of Parliament (MP) for the Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch & Strathspey constituency since 2005.

....reading Philosophy, Politics and Economics (PPE) at St Anne's College, Oxford

wicki

and apart from anything else he is a very good reason to send back one's membership to the Lib Dems an OrangeBook Tory if ever there was one ...

[aeolium]

I agree that a currency union is an odd thing to want if one wants political independence in that there is no political control of the currency. But a separate currency initially set at par to the pound would seem possible (as the Slovak koruna was created on the separation of Czechoslovakia, and prior to its joining the euro actually appreciated against the euro). Of course the case of Scotland is more complicated, but that is not in itself a reason to reject it.

And I see no reason at all why those in the rest of Britain should have a vote on Scottish independence, any more than we would think this appropriate in the case of the independence of former colonies or, say, the Falklands. Even if the Act of Union voted by both parliaments was essentially a treaty and not an act formalising occupation as with later colonies, it was still an act of enforced incorporation by all accounts opposed by a large part of the population - and accompanied by acts of violence with two subsequent major rebellions brutally suppressed. The union with Ireland was similarly opposed and followed by the growth of a powerful nationalist movement ultimately resulting in a war for independence: no-one would have thought it right for the rest of Britain to have a vote on whether that secession was right.

My sympathies are with the pro-independence camp even though I am not a fan of nationalism and I fear the semi-permanent Tory rule that would result from a breakaway of Scotland with their large bloc of non-Tory MPs. Scotland appears to hate the kind of political and economic ideology which has been foisted on it from Westminster since the start of Mrs Thatcher's rule and understandably would like greater control of its own affairs. Perhaps the best option would be "independence-lite", greater control of tax and spend without full independence, but I'm not sure how exactly that might work.

[MrGongGong]

And I see no reason at all why those in the rest of Britain should have a vote on Scottish independence, any more than we would think this appropriate in the case of the independence of former colonies or, say, the Falklands.

Why shouldn't we have a vote that is about something that affects all of us ?
Scottish MPs have a vote on things that don't affect Scotland ?
If there is a referendum about something surely those who it affects should be consulted ?

It really is unravelling
even some of my more nationalist minded Scottish friends are doubting the whole thing
Alex Salmond isn't exactly a man of great ethical principles either

[french frank]

ahem

I meant 'Scottish' rather than 'British' - i.e. not involved in UK poltics/economics.

I agree that in a referendum on self-determination, only those who seek self-determination should vote. It would seem wrong for the more numerous English to vote, either to 'kick Scotland out' or to prevent them leaving.

[aeolium]

Why shouldn't we have a vote that is about something that affects all of us ?
Scottish MPs have a vote on things that don't affect Scotland ?
If there is a referendum about something surely those who it affects should be consulted ?

Well, for one thing, can you imagine the explosive political effect of a referendum result on Scottish independence in which a majority of the people in Scotland voted for independence and a majority of the rest of the UK voted against, resulting in a NO majority? And can you imagine the effect on the popularity of any UK government required to implement the result of such a referendum?

Alex Salmond isn't exactly a man of great ethical principles either

And is David Cameron or George Osborne?

I can't think of anything more likely to increase support for the YES campaign than the appearance of Westminster politicians ganging up to intimidate the referendum electorate, and in particular Cameron campaigning from the Olympic stadium in London rather than daring to show his face in Scotland.

[Beef Oven!]

EU which would open the doors to the crazies who think that we can somehow trade with the world without negotiating treaties

You really ought to stick to things you know about.