Is tripartisanship over the SNP's bid to retain the £ bullying?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Two things puzzle me:

1. Surely the Scottish government could keep the currency known as the pound, just as the East and West Germans did with the Deutsch Mark before reunification? But the two like-minded currencies would not be transferrable without agreement;
2. If the UK were to partition, and Scotland were to be ejected from the EU, then surely the same would apply to the combined "other bits". Cameron and Osborne simply "assume" (as they always do) - an attitude that does them no favours.

[Flosshilde]

Yes they do
English students pay
French ones don't

Regardless of what happens it's unethical to charge English students and not ones from other EU countries

You were a) saying that what happens now is illegal, and b) talking about legality, not ethics.

The fine distinctions between countries and states don't really matter when you are having to cough up !

That's called having your cake & eating it. The 'fine distinction' does matter when it comes to treaties. At the moment England and Scotland belong to the same state.

You seem to be trying to out-do Scotty & Simon in wriggling, Mr GG.

[MrGongGong]

Two things puzzle me:

1. Surely the Scottish government could keep the currency known as the pound, just as the East and West Germans did with the Deutsch Mark before reunification? But the two like-minded currencies would not be transferrable without agreement;

Surely they can only do that if the bank of England decide that it's OK
and given that the Scottish Nationalists want INDEPENDENCE why would they want to keep the currency of the country they are independent of (or should that be "from" ? )

The romantic idea of an independent Scotland seems fine
but to pretend that everything will stay the same is a but foolish IMV

[MrGongGong]

You were a) saying that what happens now is illegal, and b) talking about legality, not ethics.

I'm not a lawyer
BUT if you asked a Danish one i'm sure they would say it was illegal.
(actually I didn't say it was illegal.... but you did say that
"The policy has been in place for a number of years without legal challenge from the UK government or from anyone affected.")

That's called having your cake & eating it. The 'fine distinction' does matter when it comes to treaties. At the moment England and Scotland belong to the same state.

You seem to be trying to out-do Scotty & Simon in wriggling, Mr GG.

Surely the point is that it's unethical
but hey, who cares about that ?
Mr Salmond is an expert at wanting cake and eating it
It's not a wriggle more that the current state is wrong
(which is what the Scottish University students I sometimes work with say as well as the English ones in Scotland)

[Flosshilde]

(actually I didn't say it was illegal....

Oh?

The situation at the moment is of dubious legality as it is.

[aeolium]

Two things puzzle me:

1. Surely the Scottish government could keep the currency known as the pound, just as the East and West Germans did with the Deutsch Mark before reunification? But the two like-minded currencies would not be transferrable without agreement;
2. If the UK were to partition, and Scotland were to be ejected from the EU, then surely the same would apply to the combined "other bits". Cameron and Osborne simply "assume" (as they always do) - an attitude that does them no favours.

1. Yes, but without the agreement there would obviously be problems. Also, keeping the pound sterling with a kind of supranational supervisory authority like the Bank of England would create its own difficulties and would replicate in microcosm the problems of the eurozone in that management of the currency is only possible if all participating countries operate within a very strict set of rules (in the absence of political union). So it would at once dilute Scottish independence and also create a potential subversion of the currency if one member state operated quite different fiscal policy from the other.
2. I would have thought that was logical, though I'm not sure that it follows that Scotland would be ejected from the EU (at least one authoritative legal opinion disputes that).

[MrGongGong]

Oh?

Quite

Saying something is of "dubious legality"
isn't the same as saying it is illegal

Because if I thought it was illegal
I would say that :DOH:
NOT what I did say (which isn't the same thing at all)


Some folks who do know about the law think it isn't legal under EU law
BUT
the point is surely that if Scotland became independent it can't charge students from different EU countries different fees
(assuming that it joins the EU which is starting to look rather iffy as well)

Like I said, they have't thought this through at all.

[Flosshilde]

Some folks who do know about the law think it isn't legal under EU law

So why hasn't it been challenged by the EU?

the point is surely that if Scotland became independent it can't charge students from different EU countries different fees

The Scottish Government has set out the grounds for charging students from the RUK fees, which it believes are allowable under EU regulations. Real negotiations will start after a 'Yes' vote in September.

(assuming that it joins the EU which is starting to look rather iffy as well)

There are plenty of experts who think that there wouldn't be a problem. Barroso thinks there would be, but doesn't say on what grounds. The only EU member that has expressed reservations is Spain, mainly because they don't want Catalonia getting any (more) ideas. As with other issues, the real discussions won't happen until after a Yes vote.

I bow to your knowledge of electro-acoustical music (if that's what you're an expert in), but you know no more than I do what will happen after/if Scotland becomes independent. There are plenty of experts who can give opinions on either or all sides, but even they don't know.

[MrGongGong]

So why hasn't it been challenged by the EU?

Because no one gives a shit about students?

The Scottish Government has set out the grounds for charging students from the RUK fees, which it believes are allowable under EU regulations. Real negotiations will start after a 'Yes' vote in September.

That's not inspiring much confidence is it?


One of my jobs is to be the external examiner at a Scottish University, this is a very "live" issue amongst students and young people.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Surely they can only do that if the bank of England decide that it's OK
and given that the Scottish Nationalists want INDEPENDENCE why would they want to keep the currency of the country they are independent of (or should that be "from" ? )

Because it's their currency too. They even print their own banknotes. It is arrogance on the part of England to assume we are charge of everything.

[Flosshilde]

Because no one gives a shit about students?

Possibly.

not inspiring much confidence is it?

On the contrary.

obs is to be the external examiner at a Scottish University, this is a very "live" issue amongst students and young people.

I doubt that the Scottish students would want to start paying the fees that English universities charge, so perhaps it's only 'live' among the English students?

[MrGongGong]

I doubt that the Scottish students would want to start paying the fees that English universities charge, so perhaps it's only 'live' among the English students?

In my experience young people are far more ethically minded than the self promoting politicians who think that the only thing that matters is your own financial stability.


As to it being " their currency too".... humm so what are they going to call it ?
GBP doesn't work if you aren't part of GB anymore

Don'y get me wrong, Scottish independence might be a good idea and it's fine for the Scottish folks to vote for it BUT they really haven't thought it through properly.

Have your romantic nation, fine, but how about a bit of ethics ? I know that's hard for Salmond and chums ("yes mr Trump, no mr Trump")

[Flosshilde]

You know, it's not about Alex Salmond, or the SNP. It's not about what happens in five years' time, or ten, or twenty. It's longer than that. Salmond will have the place in history he hankers after (a better place than Blair), but in fifty years' time or more the SNP could be as relevant to Scottish politics as the LibDems are to England now.

[agingjb]

I suspect that the vote will go 40% to 60% against independence (but who knows). But, if so, perhaps the consequences of that result are just as troublesome as currency and EU membership questions.

2 out 5 Scots wanting a separation which would be impossible for several decades. Vicious antipathies stirred up by the campaign, and then by the inevitable triumphalism of the "winners". Not happy thoughts.

[MrGongGong]

You know, it's not about Alex Salmond, or the SNP. It's not about what happens in five years' time, or ten, or twenty. It's longer than that. Salmond will have the place in history he hankers after (a better place than Blair), but in fifty years' time or more the SNP could be as relevant to Scottish politics as the LibDems are to England now.

You are probably right about this
BUT why the false dichotomy?

(better than Blair)

More things are possible