The wisdom of Mr. Gove.

[teamsaint]

Hard work and focus absolutely
BUT "obedience to authority" ?

So that would probably get rid of most of the musicians and artists we admire
also bye bye
Einstein (expelled)
Gandhi (not exactly an example of "obedience to authority")

The problem with these kind of "common sense" statements is that they couple things together that are completely different.
Thinking about this can someone come up with an example of something REALLY "worthwhile" that was created through "obedience to authority" ? I mean REALLY worthwhile (like the B Minor Mass or the invention of the steam engine).

Well quite.

And the hard work example would be so much more effective if those at the top, the very top, embodied this......or did something about the excesses of, for instance, the banking sector or footballers wages, or...etc etc etc...

[jean]

Self evidently. But it might well be the result of those in authority seeking it.

Well, at the moment, we do not put enough resources into education that we can provide an adult facilitator for every few children.

We are stuck with a ratio of 30:1 most of the time.

Many teachers do their best in these conditions to educate kids to ask difficult , searching questions about the nature of our society, but paradoxically (as it may seem to you) this is easier to put into practice if there is a basic culture of being prepared to listen to what the adult in the room and the other children have to say, and engage constructively with it.

Waiting for the revolution isn't really an option, and neither is withdrawing and leaving the children to their own devices.

My argument with the headmaster of Wellington is not that he recognises the problems that schools face, but that he doesn't realise how the existence of his own institution and others like it contributes to them.

One of the first steps in changing society should be getting rid of private schools, and going on to dismantle the structure of academies and free schools which have steadily eroded the metaphorical level playing field (and sometimes the actual one, too).

[jean]

Speaking for my wife, (which is a bit presumptuous...)

It is, really.

Could you ask her to post her own thoughts here, please?

[jean]

Yes indeed. Does anyone remember RD Laing's "good -> bad -> mad" ascription in "The Politics of Experience" to teenagers who go off the rails after showing every early sign of being destined to be good, obedient citizens?

PLEASE edit your posts properly, teamsaint and SA - my views and teamsaint's are all mixed up there and without some basic discipline, we shall never have any constructive argument at all.

[jean]

Thinking about this can someone come up with an example of something REALLY "worthwhile" that was created through "obedience to authority" ? I mean REALLY worthwhile (like the B Minor Mass or the invention of the steam engine).

Of course not - because it's the wrong question.

[vinteuil]

Thinking about this can someone come up with an example of something REALLY "worthwhile" that was created through "obedience to authority"

... perhaps the works of Palestrina and Shostakovitch? The Volkswagen beetle?? the operas of Lully??? much of Haydn's output????



.

[JimD]

Not to mention Beckmesser's (aka Gove's) prize song.

[jean]

... perhaps the works of Palestrina and Shostakovitch? The Volkswagen beetle?? the operas of Lully??? much of Haydn's output????

The production of these works certainly required self-discipline as well as a respect for structure and organisation.

The word authority has too wide a significance to be useful in this context - which is why I think that Mr GG's is the wrong question.

I do not agree with everything that Anthony Seldon writes in his article by any means. But he is absolutely correct when he says

"Unless students are utterly clear where the boundaries lie, the more timid members of the class will not contribute for fear of ridicule or harassment. The inescapable irony is that liberal and liberating learning only occurs when there is structure and order."

This is the paradox I referred to above. It is reasonable to expect an unruly student to accept the authority of the teacher in the classroom, an authority which is not necessarily the same thing as a fascist dictatorship. It is reasonable, because if that student is given free rein, a large number of other students suffer as a result.

If your child were one of the timid ones, would you be happy with that situation?

.

[Serial_Apologist]

PLEASE edit your posts properly, teamsaint and SA - my views and teamsaint's are all mixed up there and without some basic discipline, we shall never have any constructive argument at all.

If people observe the requirements of discipline and follow through the posts in question, then they should have no difficulty.

[jean]

One cannot 'follow through' when bits of post have been attributed to the wrong poster, SA.

[Serial_Apologist]

One cannot 'follow through' when bits of post have been attributed to the wrong poster, SA.

I see now what's happened and have amended my message 281.

[MrGongGong]

This is the paradox I referred to above. It is reasonable to expect an unruly student to accept the authority of the teacher in the classroom, an authority which is not necessarily the same thing as a fascist dictatorship. It is reasonable, because if that student is given free rein, a large number of other students suffer as a result.
]

The problem (I think) is that the "obedience to authority" that I remember from grammar school was more to do with unimaginative people exercising power over others than creating environments for learning.
Different activities require different kinds of organisation and structure, SOME (not all) require NO organisation at all.
Talking about "accepting authority" misses the point entirely, we shouldn't encourage anyone to simply "accept" authority because that's the way things are or because someone is older or has a fancy job title. Education should IMV be about questioning WHY things are like they are and stimulating curiosity.

Some of the most "self disciplined" youngsters I meet play noisy guitar in rock bands.

[teamsaint]

Just to pick up on Gonger's point about rock bands, my experience is that the creative opportunity to play in a band , (which is often had after plenty of resistance from those in "authority", ) is a catalyst to self disciplne, entrepreneurial spirit, and a wider creativity in distributing the music. The kids develop an understanding of the need for discipline as a result of opportunity, not of the demands of authority figures. A wider lesson to be learned, I think.

That apart, the discipline that Jean, I am sure correctly, says is required for a classroom environment to function for the benefit of all, will derive ultimately from the self interest of the members of the group. I don't see that this self interest is helped or going to be instilled by demands for obedience , and "lessons in Good character" ( whatever that means) from those like Seldon who look very much like part of the problem, (unaccountable authority) rather than part of the solution.

I wonder how his words might look coming not from the mouth of an educator, but from a career politician. one like Cameron, a man who really has previously had a proper job, but who will boubtless know all the buzzwords about discipline, authority, and so on.

Some " lessons in good character" might be rather more useful for many politicians, financial heavyweights, and high ranking ofsted officials.

[jean]

...Education should IMV be about questioning WHY things are like they are and stimulating curiosity.

You can't even begin to do that in a classroom situation unless you have a basic level of respect for the facilitating adult in their facilitating role, however inadequate they may be in other respects (Let's not call them a teacher, or talk about authority.)

Some of the most "self disciplined" youngsters I meet play noisy guitar in rock bands.

Yes - children who are fortunate enough to have an all-consuming interest like that will develop self-discipline as a result of it. But not all of them do.

[MrGongGong]

You can't even begin to do that in a classroom situation unless you have a basic level of respect for the facilitating adult in their facilitating role, however inadequate they may be in other respects (Let's not call them a teacher, or talk about authority.)
.

Indeed
BUT in my experience from many schools this is only really achieved by mutual respect NOT the kind of nonsense that many of us had to suffer.
It's remarkably easy (even in PRU situations) with small groups
BUT with 30 youngsters who haven't had breakfast or a reasonable amount of sleep ?

NO chance at all.