The wisdom of Mr. Gove.

[MrGongGong]

Expectation is sadly lacking it seems. Expect a lot and you'll get a lot. Of course teachers should be qualified, but being qualified is surely a basic minimum requirement (like passing your driving test). Qualification of itself doesn't produce brilliant, inspired, talented teachers.

I think the problem is that (to return to the subject) Mr Gove doesn't think that teachers need to be qualified.
Enthusiastic amateurs are fine for those unlucky enough to go to state schools.
Jobs are being advertised for "unqualified teachers"
You don't inspire people by telling them they are crap, you just make them angry and ill

[Serial_Apologist]

I think the problem is that (to return to the subject) Mr Gove doesn't think that teachers need to be qualified.
Enthusiastic amateurs are fine for those unlucky enough to go to state schools.
Jobs are being advertised for "unqualified teachers"
You don't inspire people by telling them they are crap, you just make them angry and ill

Surely one of the prerequisites of qualification in education should be communication skills, no?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Responding to #89 and 90, the putting on of a school play or musical is an extra-curricular activity, but one which can galvanise many different talents...from both staff, parents and pupils in a school. There should be a tremendous buzz about the whole thing, and very often surprising qualities emerge from kids who have been shy or maybe disaffected in routine aspects of school. Speaking from my own experience as a kid, and from seeing my own kids and their friends throwing themselves into drama productions, there is probably nothing to look back on with such a sense of fulfilment.

A school which has not managed a production in living memory should fail its Ofsted IMO, however many boxes it has ticked.

Expectation is sadly lacking it seems. Expect a lot and you'll get a lot. Of course teachers should be qualified, but being qualified is surely a basic minimum requirement (like passing your driving test). Qualification of itself doesn't produce brilliant, inspired, talented teachers.

The problem here is that teachers have been so overloaded with demands and expectations in these Ofsted infested times, that the time to run unpaid extra-curricular activities in extremely limited in most schools - further exacerbated by the drastic shortening of lunch-breaks from up to 75 minutes to as little as 30 minutes. The demands of the School Bus make after-school rehearsals a much watered-down option.

[Beef Oven!]

The problem here is that teachers have been so overloaded with demands and expectations in these Ofsted infested times, that the time to run unpaid extra-curricular activities in extremely limited in most schools - further exacerbated by the drastic shortening of lunch-breaks from up to 75 minutes to as little as 30 minutes. The demands of the School Bus make after-school rehearsals a much watered-down option.

Welcome to the real world.

[ardcarp]

The problem here is that teachers have been so overloaded with demands and expectations in these Ofsted infested times, that the time to run unpaid extra-curricular activities in extremely limited in most schools - further exacerbated by the drastic shortening of lunch-breaks from up to 75 minutes to as little as 30 minutes. The demands of the School Bus make after-school rehearsals a much watered-down option.

I totally agree with all that.

On the R4 Today programme around 7.30 ish was a discussion between the heads of a prep school and an 'Academy' on the very subject of Gove's wish for state schools to ape the independent sector. This was not a brilliant choice of debaters (a) because prep schools stop at 13 and (b) because the Academy head was clearly aping independent schools anyway!

On the subject of telling teachers they're 'crap' (not a word I actually used BTW), there are a very few in a certain school not a million miles from me who are either lazy, incompetent or both and need to be told so. (This isn't just my opinion.) In any other walk of life it would not be tolerated, so why in the teaching profession?

And if teachers want to be shot of all the paperwork rubbish which is forced upon them, the answer is simple. Join a decent Union, threaten to go on strike, and the government would soon be eating out of their hands. They need to regain their professional standing. Oh, and it would help if they stopped talking gobble-de-gook. You can't talk to some in the education establishment without a constant barrage of:

learners, engaging with, support, going forward, strategies, delivering, putting in place,

It's all a substitute for clear thinking.

[jean]

When classics teachers finesse classical language into the curriculum, they are engaging in 'remedy', when Gove does it, it's 'sneaking-in'. Hmmm.

Yes, that's exactly right.

Classics teachers had to do what they could to revive and foster their subject in the face of indifference or obstruction - they had no power to change things from the top down.

But when I use sneaking in for Gove I'm talking about the fact that he HAS that power - but he doesn't want everyone to notice his various voltes-face (is that the plural?) which come about precisely because he's thinking on the hoof and is subject to sudden revelations through never listening to anybody else.

[jean]

On the subject of telling teachers they're 'crap' (not a word I actually used BTW)...

You might as well have!

But it's difficult as well as unfair to judge a school on the sort of anecdotal evidence you give here, from what seems to be an entrenched position outside the institution.

The question you haven't answered is who made the initial decision to put on the failed musical. It appears that the thing was not planned properly from the start. Was it ever more than a vehicle for a few talented pupils?

And even from your account, I can see that if the head were to invite in outside help to rescue the production at such a late stage, it would undermine his own staff - and they're the ones who have to work with the children long after the experts have swanned off again.

And if teachers want to be shot of all the paperwork rubbish which is forced upon them, the answer is simple. Join a decent Union, threaten to go on strike, and the government would soon be eating out of their hands.

You really think it's that easy?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Welcome to the real world.

I'm aware of the world as it is (or was created by Kenneth Baker), but it regrettable consequences on what can be done. Extra-curricular activities are a long-term consequence.

[Flosshilde]

On the subject of telling teachers they're 'crap' (not a word I actually used BTW), there are a very few in a certain school not a million miles from me who are either lazy, incompetent or both and need to be told so. (This isn't just my opinion.) In any other walk of life it would not be tolerated, so why in the teaching profession?

But it is tolerated in other walks of life - from the government down. I've worked in education & the NHS, & yes, there were people in both sectors who weren't very good & some who were brilliant. Observation shows me that in othersectors there are people who are pretty crap. So I don't know why you seem to think that lazy and incompetent people are only found among teachers.

[MrGongGong]

The problem here is that teachers have been so overloaded with demands and expectations in these Ofsted infested times, that the time to run unpaid extra-curricular activities in extremely limited in most schools

I think that sometimes this is where some (and I stress SOME) teachers don't do themselves any favours.
Teachers are relatively well paid, their pay includes sick pay, holiday pay etc and is a Salary rather than an hourly rate.
Many teachers are over worked indeed BUT to say that some things are somehow "unpaid" can be (and I stress CAN) a bit disingenuous, being a music teacher would mean that one would run activities outside "normal" hours. BUT this is all a symptom of the lack of discussion of WHAT the purpose of education IS.

Welcome to the real world.

It's all REAL matey

On the subject of telling teachers they're 'crap' (not a word I actually used BTW), there are a very few in a certain school not a million miles from me who are either lazy, incompetent or both and need to be told so. (This isn't just my opinion.) In any other walk of life it would not be tolerated, so why in the teaching profession?

But it's what you meant ! (IMV)

I would (genuinely) ask
How do you know this ?
Is it the exam results ?
Or what the parents say ?

Both of which are often part of a story BUT not all

learners, engaging with, support, going forward, strategies, delivering, putting in place,

It's all a substitute for clear thinking.

Which i'm sure YOU can go and tell them ?
I'm wondering what your experience is?
Do you work in education ?
Much language is quite specific (even if, like with the word "Vocational" it doesn't necessarily mean what we might think) why not ASK what these terms mean in the context that they are used?

"Clear thinking" sounds a bit like the "common sense" nonsense that politicians spout

But it's difficult as well as unfair to judge a school on the sort of anecdotal evidence you give here, from what seems to be an entrenched position outside the institution

Come on, it's obvious, as Mr Gove shows
2 anecdotes = evidence

[Flosshilde]

Teachers are relatively well paid, their pay includes sick pay, holiday pay etc and is a Salary rather than an hourly rate.

But aren't they are contracted to work a certain number of hours? & most work well beyond that with marking & lesson preparation in the evenings.

[MrGongGong]

But aren't they are contracted to work a certain number of hours? & most work well beyond that with marking & lesson preparation in the evenings.

I know
I guess that maybe that is one of the things that separates different ways of earning a living?
In my work, if I negotiate a fee for something and it takes me much longer than I anticipate then that's my responsibility. Last year I wrote an orchestral piece, I spent about 14 hours one day working on what was about 6 bars, about 10 seconds worth. I then threw it all away the next day because in spite of the amount of work it didn't sound how I wanted. This is fine and not an unusual situation.
If i'm working on an educational project and the people i'm working with are enthused and I feel that I'm respected and paid what I think is fair then i'm more than happy to spend what others might think of as "extra time" on it. In many ways the money is secondary to the music (which is probably why we don't have exotic holidays, don't have a fancy big house and drive around in a 13 year old car?)
The only time I have felt its a bad move was when I was ill in hospital realising that everyone else was getting paid for being sick! BUT that's a small price to pay in the grand scheme of things.

I guess if one is self employed then the world always appears very different.

The key is (IMV) feeling valued and respected which is exactly the opposite of what Gove and chums are doing to teachers.

and (probably a repeat ?)

If you create a situation where the ONLY measure of value is exam results then teaching a subject like music means that you will only do work that relates to that which comes back IMV to the whole issue of what we think school is FOR!

[amateur51]

I know
I guess that maybe that is one of the things that separates different ways of earning a living?
In my work, if I negotiate a fee for something and it takes me much longer than I anticipate then that's my responsibility. Last year I wrote an orchestral piece, I spent about 14 hours one day working on what was about 6 bars, about 10 seconds worth. I then threw it all away the next day because in spite of the amount of work it didn't sound how I wanted. This is fine and not an unusual situation.
If i'm working on an educational project and the people i'm working with are enthused and I feel that I'm respected and paid what I think is fair then i'm more than happy to spend what others might think of as "extra time" on it. In many ways the money is secondary to the music (which is probably why we don't have exotic holidays, don't have a fancy big house and drive around in a 13 year old car?)
The only time I have felt its a bad move was when I was ill in hospital realising that everyone else was getting paid for being sick! BUT that's a small price to pay in the grand scheme of things.

I guess if one is self employed then the world always appears very different.

The key is (IMV) feeling valued and respected which is exactly the opposite of what Gove and chums are doing to teachers.

and (probably a repeat ?)
If you create a situation where the ONLY measure of value is exam results then teaching a subject like music means that you will only do work that relates to that which comes back IMV to the whole issue of what we think school is FOR!

It's almost as if Alan Bennett had not written The History Boys

[ardcarp]

It's almost as if Alan Bennett had not written The History Boys

:laugh:

(sorry...no emoticons in Hades)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The teachers' unions have been in dispute with Mr Gove since he first attacked their pensions and conditions of service. However, he has consistently refused to discuss the issues with them. The he says he will to avoid strike action, and having achieved this aim, immediately goes back on his word.