Lib Dems - the party we can trust???

[Serial_Apologist]

Alistair, actually!

Oops - sorry!

I don't disagree with you by any means but simply cannot see how this state of affairs would be materially different under a different system.


But do you not accept that if a different system would itself not accord such things then at least some of those functioning within it would corrupt it so that they could derive their rewards and privileges outwith the provisions and requirements of that system?


I deprecate that as much as you do but I simply cannot bring myself to believe that some of the more deplorable aspects of capitalist malpractice will continue to rear themselves irrespective of the system officially in place because some people's determination that they will continue to do so, regardless of their consequneces in undermining that different system, will know no bounds.

Quite simply I don't share your gloomy assessment of "human nature" - which I see as basically a suitable construct made up by ruling classes over the centures to convince "ordinary people" that they need some God-like figure* always to be in charge, being unable to get together and devise a system that works through co-operation, as recommended by MrGG, through some innate indolence. The best they've been able to come up with is so-called "representative democracy", which only applies to parliamentarians and local councillors, not to the heads and officers of police, armed services and business, and then only every 5 or however many years. The conventional argument for such democracy is that the alternatives inevitably lead to corruption and/or eventual dictatorship. Perhaps the most cogent argument against what I am putting forward is that a system of direct democracy and accountability would slow everything down - at least capitalism gets things done quickly! To which I would say, just look at what expense to the environment! But people change in the process of re-shaping their situation, as could be seen for instance in the way miners' wives self-image and motivation changed when called upon to lead support campaigns during the miners' strikes of the 1980s. Think how women have changed in general over the past 30 years as a consequence of feminism! - some may think, not always as some of the earlier feminists would have wished; but a moment's thought reveals the latter as largely predicated on capitalist values, i.e. attraction to individual personal power and the symbols attaching thereto, placing appearances above actualities. In the end there is no alternative to trusting in some deeper and largely yet-to-be-realised inner nature, because we are only separable from ourselves and our environments in the realm of ideation, and to mistrust ourselves (and by implication others) is to mistrust our mistrust, since the very organ of mistrust must of itself be untrustworthy!

*God being the outward projection of this idealisation in fantasy form.

[MrGongGong]

They may decide to remove the protection from cheddar cheese and Abroath smokies if we leave too

Sadly it's too late for Cheddar (though West Country Farmhouse managed to get protected)
What none of them seem to grasp is that the old "left vs right" thing doesn't apply
and there are more ways of doing things than we might imagine

[ahinton]

Oops - sorry!

No problem!

Quite simply I don't share your gloomy assessment of "human nature"

Then I guess that we'll have to beg to differ and also I might be wrong in this anyway.

- which I see as basically a suitable construct made up by ruling classes over the centures to convince "ordinary people" that they need some God-like figure* always to be in charge, being unable to get together and devise a system that works through co-operation, as recommended by MrGG, through some innate indolence. The best they've been able to come up with is so-called "representative democracy", which only applies to parliamentarians and local councillors, not to the heads and officers of police, armed services and business, and then only every 5 or however many years. The conventional argument for such democracy is that the alternatives inevitably lead to corruption and/or eventual dictatorship. Perhaps the most cogent argument against what I am putting forward is that a system of direct democracy and accountability would slow everything down - at least capitalism gets things done quickly! To which I would say, just look at what expense to the environment! But people change in the process of re-shaping their situation, as could be seen for instance in the way miners' wives self-image and motivation changed when called upon to lead support campaigns during the miners' strikes of the 1980s. Think how women have changed in general over the past 30 years as a consequence of feminism! - some may think, not always as some of the earlier feminists would have wished; but a moment's thought reveals the latter as largely predicated on capitalist values, i.e. attraction to individual personal power and the symbols attaching thereto, placing appearances above actualities. In the end there is no alternative to trusting in some deeper and largely yet-to-be-realised inner nature, because we are only separable from ourselves and our environments in the realm of ideation, and to mistrust ourselves (and by implication others) is to mistrust our mistrust, since the very organ of mistrust must of itself be untrustworthy!

You make some interesting and thought-provoking points here. The problem with anything dependent in whole or in part on some kind of capitalist thrust is that, as we all know, capitalism is subject to corruption and abuse, just as its abusers are subject to the desire to maintain corrupt practices for their own benefit and its victims are thereby abused, but this is its problem in practice rather than an inherent and unavoidable problem, I think; if capitalism insists upon perpetuating greed, misuses of power and privilege and social divisiveness, it is to be deeply regretted and its outcomes will continue to be damaging for the majority - but it need not and should not. I don't want to go any farther with that here, for reasons that may be obvious to some! - but suffice it to say that, as you write, people do indeed "change in the process of re-shaping their situation" and this is a fact that capitalist practice as well as any other kind of practice needs duly to recognise.

I still think that, if a system like that which currently pertains in British political circles enables, encourages or otherwise condones the kind of corrupt practices that have been mentioned here, a different one that doesn't do those things (if indeed one such could be devised and implemented) will most likely persuade those whom it seeks to preclude from behaving in such ways to go and do it underground outwith the provisions, demands and expectations of that different system and hope to get away with it, thereby ultimately creating a scenario of plus ça change, plus c'est le même chose...

[Serial_Apologist]

I don't want to go any farther with that here, for reasons that may be obvious to some!

And just as it was getting interesting!

[Beef Oven!]

I think they plan to use their special time travel powers to instantly negotiate trade deals with every country in the world for every commodity overnight........ seems simple to me? but what do I know, i'm just a simple noise merchant!

Loosing free movement in the EU would, of course, be to the detriment of our ability to go and hear live music. But why should we care about that when it's more important that rich people are able to abuse their employees?

Jimi Hendrix got here ok in 1970 and I saw your mate, Radik Tülüsh (thanks again for the tip-off) from central Asia, perform here in London. So no travel problems in Europe, even for non-white, non-Europeans!

Why do you people insist on scare-mongering about people coming to the UK all the time!!

[MrGongGong]

Jimi Hendrix got here ok in 1970 and I saw your mate, Radik Tülüsh (thanks again for the tip-off) from central Asia, perform here in London. So no travel problems in Europe, even for non-white, non-Europeans!

Why do you people insist on scare-mongering about people coming to the UK all the time!!

I guess you don't work in the rest of the EU then.
If I, and many other musicians, had to apply for a visa and then send off my passport every time I was going to work in France or Germany it would be too much hassle.
The kippers (and some of the daft Tories) seem to want to get rid of our ability to work in the rest of the EU and have free movement.
I have been on tour with Huun Huur Tu and know that it's not as easy as you might imagine !

And anyway what's all this about the 2010 manifesto ?

and the word of the day is

DRIVEL

It's Ratners all over again

[Beef Oven!]

If I, and many other musicians, had to apply for a visa and then send off my passport every time I was going to work in France or Germany it would be too much hassle.

Ok, so you lack commitment. But the good news is, you won't need a visa, just a passport!

So it's not just committed talent that comes, the lazy ones come too! We're all winners with UKIP!!!!!

[MrGongGong]

Ok, so you lack commitment. But the good news is, you won't need a visa, just a passport!

So it's not just committed talent that comes, the lazy ones come too! We're all winners with UKIP!!!!!

Like the man said

DRIVEL

So you mean that out of the EU we will still be able to move freely, work anywhere, have to comply with EU directives (if we don't they wont buy our stuff.... ask the Norwegians) hummmmmmmm like the man said DRIVEL

I don't think the smokies have thought this through.............. angry nonsense from sad Tory wannabe's

What I still find utterly bizarre is how a seemingly intelligent man (you like CAN FFS ?????) can be taken in by this shite ????

I think the ban on handguns is ludicrous

vote http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UKxbhMCIw4...400/scaled.jpg

[Beef Oven!]

Like the man said

DRIVEL

So you mean that out of the EU we will still be able to move freely, work anywhere, have to comply with EU directives (if we don't they wont buy our stuff.... ask the Norwegians) hummmmmmmm like the man said DRIVEL

I don't think the smokies have thought this through.............. angry nonsense from sad Tory wannabe's

What I still find utterly bizarre is how a seemingly intelligent man (you like CAN FFS ?????) can be taken in by this shite ????

Seemingly?

You'll get a dry-one if you aint careful.

It isn't 'shite' (your language is appalling this evening, you on-blob or something?). You're the one that's being taken in. All the things you're whinging about, can be had without a massive blood-sucking uber-staat with useless Eurocrats robbing member states' exchequers and tax-payers, links right und centre.

[MrGongGong]

It isn't 'shite' (your language is appalling this evening, you on-blob or something?). You're the one that's being taken in. All the things you're whinging about, can be had without a massive blood-sucking uber-staat with useless Eurocrats robbing member states' exchequers and tax-payers, links right und centre.

Like I said (and i'm sure you are familiar with the world toady) DRIVEL
Same old conspiracy nonsense

Q: how will the kippers increase the wellbeing, compassion, empathy and happiness of the world ?

[teamsaint]

Big government is a bad thing.

Those at the top like us to think that we are basically bad and need controlling. (Which is what 12 tone was saying in more eloquent terms).

People actually cooperate well most of the time, without overly complex, or any, rules to make them.

Competition,, as a virtue or enabler, has been elevated well beyond its proper level .

[MrGongGong]

Big government is a bad thing.

Those at the top like us to think that we are basically bad and need controlling. (Which is what 12 tone was saying in more eloquant terms).

People actually cooperate well most of the time, without overly complex, or any, rules to make them.

Competition,, as a virtue or enabler, has been elevated well beyond its proper level .

indeed

SO why do ALL of them want to make MORE rules ?

Rules can be useful but some things work better with less
One CON is that many of those (Tories and Kippers for example) who bang on about too much "red tape" etc actually want MORE rules.

[Beef Oven!]

Like I said (and i'm sure you are familiar with the world toady) DRIVEL
Same old conspiracy nonsense

Q: how will the kippers increase the wellbeing, compassion, empathy and happiness of the world ?

There are clear plans to increase wellbeing by 46% over the first 5 years, compassion 40%, empathy 80% and happiness is easy.

[french frank]

People actually cooperate well most of the time, without overly complex, or any, rules to make them.

Anarchist!

[MrGongGong]

There are clear plans to increase wellbeing by 46% over the first 5 years, compassion 40%, empathy 80% and happiness is easy.

Bollocks and Drivel
and you know it

ALL they want is unfettered capitalism which will simply make more people unhappy

Being a rude pub bore and shouting at people, which is Nige's speciality just makes people angry
and there are far too many angry people in the world