Lib Dems - the party we can trust???

[ahinton]

Blimmin' Aida!!!

Leave the works of socialist composers out of this, please.

MrGongGong & ahinton were bleedin' right all along!! They are a political force to be reckoned with!!!

I cannot and would therefore neither presume nor need to speak for MrGongGong but I am certainly not "right all along", over this or indeed anything else but, that said, I have never claiomed that UKIP is "a political force to be reckoned with". It may well be that, come next year's General Election, they garner sufficient voter support to be able further to destabilise the current coalition situation, possibly to the point of having to try to get into bed with at least one other party in order that a government of some kind may be formed, but even that will inevitably depend far more upon the number of HoC seats rather than the proportion of the overall vote that they can secure. In any event, until they actually do acquire Parliamentary representation of some kind, the question of what kind of force and to what extent it is to be reckoned with will have to remain open.

[Beef Oven!]

Leave the works of socialist composers out of this, please.


I cannot and would therefore neither presume nor need to speak for MrGongGong but I am certainly not "right all along", over this or indeed anything else but, that said, I have never claiomed that UKIP is "a political force to be reckoned with". It may well be that, come next year's General Election, they garner sufficient voter support to be able further to destabilise the current coalition situation, possibly to the point of having to try to get into bed with at least one other party in order that a government of some kind may be formed, but even that will inevitably depend far more upon the number of HoC seats rather than the proportion of the overall vote that they can secure. In any event, until they actually do acquire Parliamentary representation of some kind, the question of what kind of force and to what extent it is to be reckoned with will have to remain open.

A very balanced view of the UKIP.

You are very modest, you know that you have been right all along in touting this party as a new, potent force in British and European politics.

And I can excuse you, and MrGG, for banging on about this party. This is after all the politics and current affairs section - I need to be more understanding of your and GG's interests politics.

[MrGongGong]

So how come Ofcom did this......?

NO idea mate

Writing it in Red doesn't make it more interesting or true

In another discussion somewhere else we were talking about how it's not possible to have an institutional avant-garde.
It's a bit odd to advertise your ISP as being somehow radical and different and then celebrate how you have become like everyone else.... a touch of the Clegg syndrome ?

So they are like the rest, just more angry than your regular Tories

[mercia]

looking forward to the TV debate ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26443312

[MrGongGong]

looking forward to the TV debate ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26443312

http://1pumplane.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/ye-olde-fighting-cocks-st-albans-sign.jpg

[Beef Oven!]

NO idea mate

Writing it in Red doesn't make it more interesting or true

In another discussion somewhere else we were talking about how it's not possible to have an institutional avant-garde.
It's a bit odd to advertise your ISP as being somehow radical and different and then celebrate how you have become like everyone else.... a touch of the Clegg syndrome ?

So they are like the rest, just more angry than your regular Tories

You're too conventional. You like everything to fit nicely into boxes.

The world is a wonderful diverse place to be (for now). Embrace it!

[MrGongGong]

You're too conventional. You like everything to fit nicely into boxes.

The world is a wonderful diverse place to be (for now). Embrace it!

yeah right

I guess the threat to diversity comes from those who want us all to be ruled by business concerns
Nice to see you embracing the achievements of the EU in preserving the diversity of the cheesemakers of Europe

The folks you defend are simply in the same box as the folks they seek to replace.
Same on nonsense, same old shit
Let's make lots of money selling arms to dodgy regimes
Let's give away everything to venture capitalists

How about something positive ?

Lets have water, gas and electricity run for everyone?
Let's sack Gove and put him in the stocks
Let's try having an ethical foreign policy ?

No chance, is there

[Beef Oven!]

yeah right

I guess the threat to diversity comes from those who want us all to be ruled by business concerns
Nice to see you embracing the achievements of the EU in preserving the diversity of the cheesemakers of Europe

The folks you defend are simply in the same box as the folks they seek to replace.
Same on nonsense, same old shit
Let's make lots of money selling arms to dodgy regimes
Let's give away everything to venture capitalists

How about something positive ?

Lets have water, gas and electricity run for everyone?
Let's sack Gove and put him in the stocks
Let's try having an ethical foreign policy ?

No chance, is there

You're Pete Townsend, and I claim my £5!

[MrGongGong]

You're Pete Townsend, and I claim my £5!

You're easily taken in by supposed "common sense" and you can keep your sweaty palms off my wallet !

[aeolium]

I think this is an interesting analysis of UKIP's rise and core appeal:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/05/left-behind-voters-only-ukip-understands

Those who dismiss it as a fringe party run by "fruitcakes" ought really to pay more attention to it. In my area it has come from nowhere to take several seats in district council elections. It will certainly take votes from Labour as well as the Tories and may become the main threat to Labour in the north. Its rise is another illustration of the fact that austerity policies do not of themselves create greater support for the left - for the left, or at least the official "left", has in its policies largely forgotten its former core support and as was mentioned in the article has hardly any MPs from working-class backgrounds any longer. As in the rest of Europe, it is generally the unconventional right that benefits.

[french frank]

another illustration of the fact that austerity policies do not of themselves create greater support for the left - for the left, or at least the official "left", has in its policies largely forgotten its former core support and as was mentioned in the article has hardly any MPs from working-class backgrounds any longer. As in the rest of Europe, it is generally the unconventional right that benefits.

I'm not quite sure what the 'unconventional right' is unless those who have been loosely labelled as right-wing.

The poor working class areas have also been traditionally racist, plus, as stated, they are the ones which suffer most from austerity policies. A 'liberal' middle-class Labour party doesn't represent them and is not seen as representing 'working people'. I would say there has always been a 'working class', perhaps marginally better off, that has supported the Conservatives too. So the thesis seems to be that the two groups are coming together under UKIP's banner and threatening both the major parties in some areas?

[aeolium]

I'm not quite sure what the 'unconventional right' is unless those who have been loosely labelled as right-wing.

Examples might be Marine Le Pen's Front Nationale party in France and the Finns Party (formerly True Finns) in Finland, where common denominators are social and cultural conservatism (and strong nationalism) combined with economic protectionism and support for regulation and state intervention. It's not at all consistent across Europe where there are also more extreme and more pro-free market right-wing parties, but those two are examples of parties that are now according to electoral analysis taking substantial support from those who might have been expected to vote for conventional left-of-centre parties. This is what makes them 'unconventional' right-wing parties in that they combine elements that will attract disillusioned conservatives with those that will attract the dispossessed and the economically struggling (the latter having been largely forgotten by the mainstream parties).

[Beef Oven!]

The Guardian doesn't understand UKIP at all, even less than the liberals and socialists in this forum do.

It probably won't be possible to have a sensible discussion for at least a couple of years, when UKIP has either established itself as a serious alternative, or fizzled out.

E.A. Nordlinger, in his work 'Working Class Tories' from the late 60s (I read it in the mid 70s) argues that Britain, especially when compared to its continental neighbours, is essentially a conservative nation by character. This old, latterly ignored work, has never been surpassed as a simple snapshot of the British political character.

If you want to understand why a right-wing populist party might become an electoral force, ignore analyses that lazily talk about 'low-paid working class people' being 'traditionally racist' and think that support only comes from old, non-university educated under-achievers with grey hair. The support for a party like UKIP might actually come from a much bigger spring.

[french frank]

The Guardian doesn't understand UKIP at all, even less than the liberals and socialists in this forum do.

What are your own credentials for understanding it better, other than having read a book in the mid 70s?

To state observed truths isn't 'lazy talk', and isn't necessarily intended to be some sort of compendium of political wisdom; nor do the truths become false.

[aeolium]

Also it's perfectly reasonable to try to consider the nature and demographic of UKIP's appeal now, not after the European and next general elections. After all, it claims to be a serious fourth force in UK politics - a claim recognised by Ofcom - and has been consistently polling above 10%. And it's not a question of "the Guardian" understanding UKIP or not: the writers of that article have also written on UKIP in the Telegraph and Financial Times. But it's not just "socialists" and "liberals" pondering UKIP - this was a lengthy study commissioned in 2012 by a former deputy chairman of the Conservative party. The study looked at the issues thought important by those who had voted UKIP or were considering voting UKIP, also recording demographic information such as age, sex, social group. That sort of study seems a far better basis on which to look at UKIP than a book written two decades before UKIP existed.