VPO confronts its Nazi past

[aeolium]

Members of the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra in the 1930s would have joined the Nazi party for a variety of reasons; to save their skin, to protect their families, to have an easy life or from conviction. It ill behoves us sitting by our warm fires this Christmas Eve 70+ years later to pass judgement on their actions. The present day VPO cannot be held responsible for what their forebears did and the action they have taken to withdraw honours and confront the dark time in their past is the right one and does them much credit.

I agree with that but the problem is that anti-semitism in the VPO long post-dated the Nazi period, as was made clear in John Drummond's book Tainted by Experience. There are also the questions of racial and gender homogeneity in the VPO's employment practices as highlighted in this article some years ago:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/all-white-on-the-night-why-does-the-worldfamous-vienna-philharmonic-feature-so-few-women-and-ethnic-minorities-1915666.html

[amateur51]

Why is it important to reflect? Why go over and over and over and over the same old stuff?

Why not just address directly the politicians who are scare-mongering? Challenge them directly.

Isn't that like saying 'Don't put your hand in the fire!' to a child? The child, being a child, then does so. And as she tearfully waves her blistered hand around and wails, you say 'There, I told you not to do it!'

Whereas if you took the child's hand very close to the fire and let her feel the heat, she might understand the basis your warning, which is of course based on your past experience with fires ...

[Beef Oven!]

I agree with that but the problem is that anti-semitism in the VPO long post-dated the Nazi period, as was made clear in John Drummond's book Tainted by Experience. There are also the questions of racial and gender homogeneity in the VPO's employment practices as highlighted in this article some years ago:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-en...s-1915666.html

Not sure why, but while I can't accept the anti-Semitism, I have difficulty in ruling out a gender and racial homogeneity. Maybe it's because we'll never be able to get back the VPO as was, when it's gone and. I'd say the same about Zulus.

[Beef Oven!]

Isn't that like saying 'Don't put your hand in the fire!' to a child? The child, being a child, then does so. And as she tearfully waves her blistered hand around and wails, you say 'There, I told you not to do it!'

Whereas if you took the child's hand very close to the fire and let her feel the heat, she might understand the basis your warning, which is of course based on your past experience with fires ...

Who do you recommend, Belloc or Chesterton? And I thought I was a dinosaur.

[Petrushka]

A pity that this thread has ended up in the dungeon because I think a useful discussion could have taken place regarding the moral and ethical dilemma facing musicians of the Nazi era. This whole issue still clearly raises hackles but I don't think it's as clear cut as some make out. Once again, sitting in our comfortable armchairs this Christmas Eve 70+ years later is no place to pass judgement on the actions of artists who faced a totalitarian system. We, with the benefit of hindsight know how it all turned out. They had no such luxury.

[amateur51]

A pity that this thread has ended up in the dungeon because I think a useful discussion could have taken place regarding the moral and ethical dilemma facing musicians of the Nazi era. This whole issue still clearly raises hackles but I don't think it's as clear cut as some make out. Once again, sitting in our comfortable armchairs this Christmas Eve 70+ years later is no place to pass judgement on the actions of artists who faced a totalitarian system. We, with the benefit of hindsight know how it all turned out. They had no such luxury.

Where else should I sit?

I just can't accept that we have to live with the decisions that people made under duress seventy years ago. We can choose to learn from their decisions and the consequences and choose to behave differently.

[Beef Oven!]

Once again, sitting in our comfortable armchairs this Christmas Eve 70+ years later is no place to pass judgement on the actions of artists who faced a totalitarian system. We, with the benefit of hindsight know how it all turned out. They had no such luxury.

Indeed, it is very easy. What was Furtwangler supposed to do? Some avowed socialists won't even boycott Amazon, so who are they to judge.

[Beef Oven!]

Where else should I sit?

I just can't accept that we have to live with the decisions that people made under duress seventy years ago. We can choose to learn from their decisions and the consequences and choose to behave differently.

We can't change what happened, but we can focus on the now and the future. No sense in endlessly going over the past and chattering away like fisher-wives.

[amateur51]

We can't change what happened, but we can focus on the now and the future. No sense in endlessly going over the past and chattering away like fisher-wives.

I do believe that you've almost got it!

What is it about choosing not to repeat the past that alarms you so?

[Petrushka]

Where else should I sit?

I just can't accept that we have to live with the decisions that people made under duress seventy years ago. We can choose to learn from their decisions and the consequences and choose to behave differently.

These are two different issues. Indeed we can learn from the past but we can't change it. What happened, happened and nothing we can do will put that right. The present day VPO have done what they can to right the wrongs of that time. More than that they cannot do.

[amateur51]

These are two different issues. Indeed we can learn from the past but we can't change it. What happened, happened and nothing we can do will put that right. The present day VPO have done what they can to right the wrongs of that time. More than that they cannot do.

I agree.

BeefOven would have us not do that, for some reason which he has yet to explain adequately.

[Beef Oven!]

I agree.

BeefOven would have us not do that, for some reason which he has yet to explain adequately.

We have learnt. We do not have to go over it all again. We must now get on with the doing bit.

[amateur51]

We have learnt. We do not have to go over it all again. We must now get on with the doing bit.

Hooray!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

As we are now in the Politics Forum, I'll tell you a story of my parents' experience in 1945. They married shortly after hostilities ended in Europe.
Prisoners-of-War were released in batches according to their perceived Nazi sympathies. However, as the war was over, members of the British public were able to meet German PoWs and even invite them to their homes. My parents met 3 POWs and befriended them. All three became life-long friends.
Ernst Leonhart's parents has resisted pressure for their son to join the Hitler Youth, but had finally succombed under the intense pressure. As a result, Ernst was released before the end of 1945.
Werner Liessmann was a little older and had a pharmacy business in Hildesheim, near Hannover. He joined the Nazi Party voluntarily, not because he supported their extreme policies, but because it was good for his business. My parents were rather horrified by such lack of principle, but as Werner was detained until 1947, the friendship developed. Fundamentally, he was a good man, lured by profit as are so many others today.
I wonder whether many of the VPO who joined the Nazi Party fell into one or other of these categories.

[amateur51]

As we are now in the Politics Forum, I'll tell you a story of my parents' experience in 1945. They married shortly after hostilities ended in Europe.
Prisoners-of-War were released in batches according to their perceived Nazi sympathies. However, as the war was over, members of the British public were able to meet German PoWs and even invite them to their homes. My parents met 3 POWs and befriended them. All three became life-long friends.
Ernst Leonhart's parents has resisted pressure for their son to join the Hitler Youth, but had finally succombed under the intense pressure. As a result, Ernst was released before the end of 1945.
Werner Liessmann was a little older and had a pharmacy business in Hildesheim, near Hannover. He joined the Nazi Party voluntarily, not because he supported their extreme policies, but because it was good for his business. My parents were rather horrified by such lack of principle, but as Werner was detained until 1947, the friendship developed. Fundamentally, he was a good man, lured by profit as are so many others today.
I wonder whether many of the VPO who joined the Nazi Party fell into one or other of these categories.

Illuminating stories EA - many thanks.

Thanks to digital communications it is much easier for citizens to communicate with people in other countries and in other parts of the same country. Word gets out far more quickly than it did in 1940s Europe, witness the uprisings against corrupt governments all over the world. But we need to be aware of the lessons learned by your parents' generation nevertheless. If we have to start assimilating these lessons when the barbarians are at the gates then it is probably too late. We need to stop them before they get there.