VPO confronts its Nazi past

[Guest]

A new report by the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra reveals that almost half the orchestra's members belonged to the Nazi Party by 1942. The orchestra's study also says that it expelled over a dozen players because of their Jewish affiliations, and that some of them perished in concentration camps after their expulsion.

The findings, released on the Vienna Philharmonic's website on Sunday, were part of the results of a study commissioned by the orchestra's chairman in January, in response to criticisms that the organization had not been up front about its Nazi past.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/11/vienna-philharmonic-orchestra-nazi_n_2853460.html

In the run-up to its New year showcase, the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra has let it be known that honours it gave to six Nazi leaders have been withdrawn. It has also admitted past intentions to present an honour to Adolf Hitler.

http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2013/12/at-last-vienna-philharmonic-cancels-honours-it-gave-to-nazi-leaders.html

The 'royal pardon' given by Queen Elizabeth II to Alan Turing in UK seems like a good idea, perhaps making the best of a bad job; do members feel similarly about the intentions and the likely impact of the VPO's actions regarding this aspect of its past?

[Black Swan]

First of all, although off thread, it is about time something was done to right the wrong done to Alan Turing. We all owe a huge debt to him for the work he did at Bletchley Park. A pardon is little enough for what was done to this brilliant mathematician.

As for honors given to Nazi Party Leaders, yes they should be withdrawn. I don't see any real impact on this for the VPO. This was a political move done at a time in history where rationale society was out of control.

[Beef Oven!]

This was a political move done at a time in history where rationale society was out of control.

Precisely, no action required, so let's move on.

[amateur51]

was a political move done at a time in history where rationale society was out of control.

Is the political move to which you're referring the Nazi move or the contemporary move, bearing in mind what's happening currently in neighbouring Hungary?

[Beef Oven!]

Why has this thread not been moved to the Politics & current Affairs section?

[amateur51]

Why has this thread not been moved to the Politics & current Affairs section?

Because you haven't asked french frank to do so.

[french frank]

Because you haven't asked french frank to do so.

Not quite. I won't move something to P&CA because i'm asked to but because, in my judgement, sensible discussion has been hijacked by trouble-makers.

This is of legtimate interest to classical music lovers. Or at least some of them.

[amateur51]

Not quite. I won't move something to P&CA because i'm asked to but because, in my judgement, sensible discussion has been hijacked by trouble-makers.

This is of legtimate interest to classical music lovers. Or at least some of them.

I wasn't implying that you take orders, french frank :winkeye:

[Petrushka]

Members of the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra in the 1930s would have joined the Nazi party for a variety of reasons; to save their skin, to protect their families, to have an easy life or from conviction. It ill behoves us sitting by our warm fires this Christmas Eve 70+ years later to pass judgement on their actions. The present day VPO cannot be held responsible for what their forebears did and the action they have taken to withdraw honours and confront the dark time in their past is the right one and does them much credit.

Personally, I'm tired of Lebrecht banging on about this issue in his blog and with any luck this will be the end of it. A long period of silence would be most welcome.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

None of the current members of the VPO are, as far as I am aware, members of the Nazi Party, so no-one apologising at this point in history is going to feel the responsibility behind it.

The fact that jews were expelled from the orchestra is deplorable, but membership of the Nazi Party did not necessarily indicate personal agreement with its aims and ideology. Often it was just fear.

[amateur51]

Members of the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra in the 1930s would have joined the Nazi party for a variety of reasons; to save their skin, to protect their families, to have an easy life or from conviction. It ill behoves us sitting by our warm fires this Christmas Eve 70+ years later to pass judgement on their actions. The present day VPO cannot be held responsible for what their forebears did and the action they have taken to withdraw honours and confront the dark time in their past is the right one and does them much credit.

Personally, I'm tired of Lebrecht banging on about this issue in his blog and with any luck this will be the end of it. A long period of silence would be most welcome.

That is your right and privilege.

But in these dangerous times (witness the scare-mongering by UK politicians about EU migrants, events in Hungary & Russia) it is important to reflect on how 'ordinary' people in the past reacted to such events 'to save their skin, to protect their families, to have an easy life or from conviction' and the impact that such behaviour has one others involved in the system.

If we ignore the lessons of history, are we destined to repeat them?

[Petrushka]

That is your right and privilege.

But in these dangerous times (witness the scare-mongering by UK politicians about EU migrants, events in Hungary & Russia) it is important to reflect on how 'ordinary' people in the past reacted to such events 'to save their skin, to protect their families, to have an easy life or from conviction' and the impact that such behaviour has one others involved in the system.

If we ignore the lessons of history, are we destined to repeat them?

You are confusing a matter of interest to music lovers with contemporary European politics which has no business on this thread.

[amateur51]

You are confusing a matter of interest to music lovers with contemporary European politics which has no business on this thread.

We know from their actions at the time that Furtwaengler would have felt the same as you do, if he were a member of this forum, whereas Toscanini and Bruno Walter would have not.

[Beef Oven!]

You are confusing a matter of interest to music lovers with contemporary European politics which has no business on this thread.

:ok:

[Beef Oven!]

That is your right and privilege.

But in these dangerous times (witness the scare-mongering by UK politicians about EU migrants, events in Hungary & Russia) it is important to reflect on how 'ordinary' people in the past reacted to such events 'to save their skin, to protect their families, to have an easy life or from conviction' and the impact that such behaviour has one others involved in the system.

If we ignore the lessons of history, are we destined to repeat them?

Why is it important to reflect? Why go over and over and over and over the same old stuff?

Why not just address directly the politicians who are scare-mongering? Challenge them directly.