'Amazon afairtrade

[Stillhomewardbound]

Hands up, anyone on here that has never been an Amazon customer, or either bought an item on line??

Well, that's probably nearly no one, isn't it, and the fact you're reading this at all suggests that you are comfortably integrated with the online retail environment that is the provenance of Amazon and the like?

Now, don't panic. I'm not suggesting that any of you have done anything wrong.

Like any normal consumer you are looking for the best quality at the cheapest price; and by golly, don't we get some deals these days, but what I will say is this:

We have hard factual information on just what the people who pick our goods are actually being payed and the conditions to which they are being subject.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/dec/01/week-amazon-insider-feature-treatment-employees-work

[Please be so good as to read the entire article before responding]

I mean, I ask you. A fifteen minute break of which it takes you twelve minutes to walk to and from your location just to have a pi**.

The truth is, I love the convenience of being an Amazon customer, but I also love the fact that I can walk into my local supermarket and buy Fairtrade bananas and oranges, also coffee.

That way I know that the workers in Bolivia or whatever or been payed reasonable wages. Nothing like Europe's, but hopefully not wholly in the exploitation zone.

So, here's my suggestion. We are not likely to give up our online retail habits anytime soon, but we can press for 'Amazon Fairtrade'.

This would be any online company which pays income tax according to the domains in which it trades. It would also introduce proper worker representation, match national wage levels and ensure that all employees benefitted from income dividends.

Surely not that much to ask, is it?

[amateur51]

A fine post, shb.

As much as anything I appreciate Amazon's delivery and the variety available. There are no longer any bookshops within easy reach here, wheras there were two up to four years ago and the last one folded last year. There's certainly nowhere for me to buy a CD of the sort of music that I like. the bargains are a factor, I concede but I agree in principle with your proposal.

I would probably buy fewer items if the prices went up to accommodate your suggestion shb, but that in itself might be no bad thing. I'd be interested to know, however, by what factor the prices would have to go up; and given amazon's massive turnover - probably not very much?

So ... can anyone help with the maths? Once that's established we could set up one of those e-petition thingos.

[Serial_Apologist]

Well I almost fall into the rarely mentioned/catered for non-online-buying minority, except that a couple of years ago I bought one CD and one DVD from the States using Palpal. I was terrrified, but it worked. Last week I watched the Panorama on pay and working conditions at Amazon, whose monopoly seems to be out-competing others, to go by the small-operating businessman interviewed on the programme. But the fact is that, while most product is cr*ap these days, I still prefer the hassle of physically shopping to see beforehand the cr*p I have to buy if I am not to go naked in the streets, thereby maintaining some sense of what would otherwise befall our former collective gathering and foraging locales were we all to cease periodically visiting them, and formulating some idea of what might happen to us, physically and psychologically, as we further isolate our busy selves (well not mine, being retired) in front of computer screens.

[Beef Oven!]

Hands up, anyone on here that has never been an Amazon customer, or either bought an item on line??

Well, that's probably nearly no one, isn't it, and the fact you're reading this at all suggests that you are comfortably integrated with the online retail environment that is the provenance of Amazon and the like?

Now, don't panic. I'm not suggesting that any of you have done anything wrong.

Like any normal consumer you are looking for the best quality at the cheapest price; and by golly, don't we get some deals these days, but what I will say is this:

We have hard factual information on just what the people who pick our goods are actually being payed and the conditions to which they are being subject.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/dec/01/week-amazon-insider-feature-treatment-employees-work

[Please be so good as to read the entire article before responding]

I mean, I ask you. A fifteen minute break of which it takes you twelve minutes to walk to and from your location just to have a pi**.

The truth is, I love the convenience of being an Amazon customer, but I also love the fact that I can walk into my local supermarket and buy Fairtrade bananas and oranges, also coffee.

That way I know that the workers in Bolivia or whatever or been payed reasonable wages. Nothing like Europe's, but hopefully not wholly in the exploitation zone.

So, here's my suggestion. We are not likely to give up our online retail habits anytime soon, but we can press for 'Amazon Fairtrade'.

This would be any online company which pays income tax according to the domains in which it trades. It would also introduce proper worker representation, match national wage levels and ensure that all employees benefitted from income dividends.

Surely not that much to ask, is it?

Interesting article, although there is something of a 'self-fulfilling prophecy' about it.

Amazon really does represent a dilemma for some people. The truth is, books, music etc are easily and widely available from plenty of excellent other mail order companies which are better than Amazon in terms of range, product knowledge etc, but they are not necessarily as good on speed of delivery and price, that's all.

It all boils down to how strong your principles are. I'm not happy about some of the accusations in the article about working practices, but my desire for the cheapest price and fastest delivery will mean that I will turn a blind eye, look the other way, whatever.

We're all different, and I respect people 'who talk the talk, and walk the walk' and boycott Amazon.

[anotherbob]

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2013/nov/30/alternatives-to-amazon-mps-boycott

[Serial_Apologist]

http://www.theguardian.com/money/201...on-mps-boycott

"Hodge, the Barking Labour MP..." seems a bit unkind...

[teamsaint]

she knows which way here bread is buttered....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/businesslatestnews/9668396/Margaret-Hodges-family-company-pays-just-0.01pc-tax-on-2.1bn-of-business-generated-in-the-UK.html

[Beef Oven!]

"Hodge, the Barking Labour MP..." seems a bit unkind...

HeHe, having had dealings with her on a professional level on several occasions, I would say it's unfair too! Disagree with her on most things, and even her name sets my teeth on edge, but she's very savvy.

'Aggressively' avoiding tax? How the hell would that work!!!!? Doncha just love that leftysprach!!?

Amazon's reply is perfect.

[amateur51]

'Aggressively' avoiding tax? How the hell would that work!!!!? Doncha just love that leftysprach!!?

Amazon's reply is perfect.

Rechtssprach can be just a luvverly - witness how the Tories tackled 'aggressive begging'

[Beef Oven!]

Rechtssprach can be just a luvverly - witness how the Tories tackled 'aggressive begging'

Bad example sausage, the begging is pretty aggressive, literally. Amazon are quite passively following tax laws.

[amateur51]

Bad example sausage, the begging is pretty aggressive, literally. Amazon are quite passively following tax laws.

You clearly have never begged in the street for something. It's a hateful process, totally demeaning. Literally.

[Dave2002]

Amazon is only one bad example. Other well known shops and service providers are exploiting their workers too, and I doubt that we have seen the last of child labour being used to provide goods for sale in the UK. What happens outside the UK clearly doesn't concern us!

Unfortunately I'm not convinced that boycotting firms by itself will be effective in changing the operation of these firms. It does not seem likely that boycotts will bring the businesses down, and indeed, do we really want to do that? Would we still buy from Amazon if their prices were 20% higher? Possibly yes - though it would also allow other enterprises to compete more fairly. Would a 20% price rise result in Amazon treating their work force more reasonably? Possibly not.

Would government intervention make any difference? Some companies would simply relocate to yet another country, with even fewer controls, if attempts were made to get them to comply with reasonable labour laws and provide decent and fair working conditions.

Companies with shareholders might be susceptible to lobbying by their shareholders, but that probably won't happen in many cases. Many investors will not want to see "their" profits given away.

I feel that something should be done, but what?

[aeolium]

Companies who are benefitting indirectly from all the benefits that are provided through taxation - a functioning legal system, transport infrastructure, an educated workforce, a national health service - ought to pay tax commensurate with the profits they derive in that country. They ought also to treat the workers they employ humanely and it is surprising that laws either at the national level or the European level do not prevent the kind of abuse which has been reported.

I have consciously avoided using Amazon for the last 2 years, preferring other locally based companies like prestoclassical. I don't think my boycott has the slightest effect on Amazon's behaviour or their profits. I think a concerted attempt at a boycott, perhaps promoted through campaigning organisations like avaaz or 38degrees might have some effect particularly if it were accompanied by publicity and demonstrations outside Amazon sites (and, as Uncut has tried, with other companies that arguably abuse tax laws).

As to what can be achieved long-term, I would like to see a transaction tax applied on the basis of the destination location of the item. If that means Amazon's prices rise so that they are closer to what their national competitors (who cannot avoid paying tax) charge, and that their profits, executive bonuses and shareholder dividends fall, then so be it. And employee protection laws should be tightened to prevent the abusive behaviour which has been publicised.

[Beef Oven!]

Amazon is only one bad example. Other well known shops and service providers are exploiting their workers too, and I doubt that we have seen the last of child labour being used to provide goods for sale in the UK. What happens outside the UK clearly doesn't concern us!

Unfortunately I'm not convinced that boycotting firms by itself will be effective in changing the operation of these firms. It does not seem likely that boycotts will bring the businesses down, and indeed, do we really want to do that? Would we still buy from Amazon if their prices were 20% higher? Possibly yes - though it would also allow other enterprises to compete more fairly. Would a 20% price rise result in Amazon treating their work force more reasonably? Possibly not.

Would government intervention make any difference? Some companies would simply relocate to yet another country, with even fewer controls, if attempts were made to get them to comply with reasonable labour laws and provide decent and fair working conditions.

Companies with shareholders might be susceptible to lobbying by their shareholders, but that probably won't happen in many cases. Many investors will not want to see "their" profits given away.

I feel that something should be done, but what?

You can't change them, you can't make them think the way you think. Can't see why shareholders, those people who are taking the risk with their money, would want to take a smaller dividend just because your political views say so!

The government has its hands tied by European Union Taxation and free-trade regulations and directives that trump anything that our own parliament might want to do.

What we can do is boycott them. Don't buy from them. There are lots of alternatives.

There is absolutely no reason why anyone with a particular social conscience, should use Amazon.


P.S. Amazon comply with all labour laws, reasonable or otherwise. They also pay all taxes that they are liable for.

[Beef Oven!]

Companies who are benefitting indirectly from all the benefits that are provided through taxation - a functioning legal system, transport infrastructure, an educated workforce, a national health service - ought to pay tax commensurate with the profits they derive in that country. They ought also to treat the workers they employ humanely and it is surprising that laws either at the national level or the European level do not prevent the kind of abuse which has been reported.

I have consciously avoided using Amazon for the last 2 years, preferring other locally based companies like prestoclassical. I don't think my boycott has the slightest effect on Amazon's behaviour or their profits. I think a concerted attempt at a boycott, perhaps promoted through campaigning organisations like avaaz or 38degrees might have some effect particularly if it were accompanied by publicity and demonstrations outside Amazon sites (and, as Uncut has tried, with other companies that arguably abuse tax laws).

As to what can be achieved long-term, I would like to see a transaction tax applied on the basis of the destination location of the item. If that means Amazon's prices rise so that they are closer to what their national competitors (who cannot avoid paying tax) charge, and that their profits, executive bonuses and shareholder dividends fall, then so be it. And employee protection laws should be tightened to prevent the abusive behaviour which has been publicised.

The current transaction tax is already a hefty 20%. Amazon therefore generates huge revenues for the government through their sales.

You want another 20% added to this and passed on to the consumer through higher prices. 40% worth of purchase tax!