Cornflakes Anybody???

[amateur51]

Good question (though I'm unsure whether a certain member would even accord credibility to such a concept). Someone whom I know happens to be both Professor of Cognitive Neuroscience at the Department of Neuroscience in a distinguished Swedish institute and an astonishingly gifted pianist whose exceptionally high IQ has enabled him to be a member of the Prometheus Society (http://prometheussociety.org/cms/), yet somehow I don't imagine that he makes more money from his research activities or piano playing than do certain of those CEOs and City slickers to whom I referred earlier...

But is he happy, ahinton? :laugh:

[amateur51]

'Tis Ferretfancy to whom you should offer your "many thanks", ams! Credit where credit's due (as the banker said to the bishop)...

I've amended this now, ahinton -- many thanks to you too

[Richard Barrett]

I should say that Gould was a distinguished American palaeontologist and historian of science, and not as far as I know one of Mr Pee's left wing pinkos

I'm afraid you're wrong there, ff - Prof Gould is regularly vilified by conservative commentators as exactly that. Google Stephen Jay Gould liberal and ugly heads will raise themselves out of the mire.

[ahinton]

But is he happy, ahinton? :laugh:

I have never gained any impression that he is otherwise, though how he manages his two quite distinct careers is well beyond someone with an IQ like whatever I sppose mine might be!...

[teamsaint]

Just on IQ for a minute.
There is of course a construct that links success via a top quality (and top price) education with intrinsic abilities.

I once happened to be at an introductory talk for parents at Bryanston school. (NOT anything to do with my kids, I have to say.). That is the one near Blandford in Dorset, where the children of wealthy farmers mingle with the children of rich arty London types.

the head master stood there and congratulated the parents on their superb gene pool.
Not on their ability to find post tax £25k per child !!

Genuinely sickening.

do people like Mr Pee REALLY believe that johnson/cameron-astor/osborne/bliar get where they do because they work harder and are more intelligent than other people?
Really?

[ahinton]

do people like Mr Pee REALLY believe that johnson/cameron-astor/osborne/bliar get where they do because they work harder and are more intelligent than other people?
Really?

Only he can answer that for himself; whether or not he will do so remains to be seen. That said, the wealth of most oif not all of those is part inherited anyway, so it's important to distinguish the incomes that people are alleged to be capable of making and sometimes do make from the wealth that they already possess.

[amateur51]

According to tonight's London Evening Standard ...

"The number of UK bankers earning at least €1 million soared to more than 2,700 last year, in a new City pay explosion.

The figure is 12 times more than any other country in the EU, underlining London’s dominance as Europe’s financial centre.

The total rose by 11 per cent despite strenuous Government efforts to curb the damaging “bonus culture.” The figures, from the European Banking Authority, show thousands of London finance workers still measure their pay and bonuses in millions, five years after the banking crisis that triggered a devastating global recession."

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/city-pay-explosion-leaves-london-with-2700-bankers-earning-more-than-a-million-8972722.html

So were the bankers who caused the global banking crisis in the top 1% of IQs or just lucky/unlucky, or ...?

The Standard article conludes with ...

"Of the British bankers earning more than €1 million, 2,188 worked in investment banking, 62 were in retail banking, 198 were in fund management and 266 were in other areas.

The European watchdog said that only 212 bankers in Germany earned more than €1 million, up by a quarter from 2011.

A total of 177 bankers were similarly well rewarded in France and 109 in Italy."

These figures seem to give the lie to the Johnsonian idea that IQ and wealth-making capacity are linked in some way.

[Stillhomewardbound]

Couple of observations:

I have no idea about my IQ and I pretty well grew up believing myself to be a bit thick. Possibly it has something to do with the sympathetic smile with which my parents would regard me, but also to do with the fact that at primary school I was consigned for a time to a remedial class for mathematics.

Later, at 'big school' I was regarded as being of a sunny disposition, but not likely to do much by way of academic attainment. Flashing back for a moment my primary school headmistress (one Miss Hunt, a kindly, but starchy figure - a pre-cursor of Clare Balding) advised my mother in a 'what's next for Stephen?' interview that there was no question of my passing the 11+. This would have been '73/74 by which time the comprehensive system was well underway, but still it was being invoked as a bench mark.

My mother's reaction? Entirely one of mutual accord; and, truth be spoken, my grades and the like would give this view some credence.

So, I limped on through 'O' and 'A' levels followed by a degree. A Tutu, of course, though if they'd only asked the right questions and with a following wind I'm sure it would have been a 2:1, but still labouring under the notion that I didn't quite have the brain power of neither my siblings or my ma and pa.

Well, how did I turn out with this Samsonite undertow of residual baggage? Truth be spoken, I've never did acquire leadership of an international bank or corporation, but then again, neither did I drive the same in to the ground. Nor have I ever considered having a stab at brain surgery. Start stabbing around the cerebral regions and it is likely to go horribly wrong. As for my mathematical limitations? Accepted. I have no facility, whatsoever, for calculus, chemistry, physics and all that, but nor have I ever struggled with numeracy which surely IS a bread-and-butter essential of our daily lives.

Coming up to date, my subsequent levels of attainment are, I would say, indicative of 'achiever status', shall we call it? In radio, journalism and photography, I have had my moments, my not-so-minor triumphs. I was even once described as being hyper-intelligent, (I took the money and ran out into the night as fast as I could!), but still, I don't know what my IQ is, and, at this stage in the game, I don't care to know, I don't need to know.

However, this much I do know. As per the article referenced by Am21 in the preceding post, there are now 2,700 bankers at work in the Square Mile whose earnings exceed a million pounds each year (as compared to 212 German bankers and 177 French bankers at the same level, respectively).

Well, to borrow Bold Boris's analogy, we must be looking at an astonishing level of attainment and, ergo, IQ levels that must disappear into the clouds. Possibly, but more likely, we are looking at a banking sector fully gearing itself to revert to its habits of old just as soon as it can so that, in not time at all, we'll have the same gambling addicts back at the tables, playing with other people's cash, yet again.

Now, my track record tells me I'm not quite up there with the Einsteins, but can I say to Boris, I know THICK when I see it and his Gecko-style revivalist spirit looks to me like the real thing.

There's a pop-song of the 1990s, the refrain of which is 'let's go round again'. Actually, Boris, let's not.


In conclusion: the best thing, for my money, that has always illustrated the nonsense of the IQ debate, is a wonderful 'Smith & Jones' sketch when they're are doing their talking heads routine:


Mel: Well, keep it to yourself, but I happen to be, erm ... a member of MENSA.

Jones: Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. You look ok!

Mel: No, no. It's an organisation, a club, like, for people with ... er, exceptionally high IQs.

Jones: ... and that's you is it?

Mel: Yeah, yeah. Course I don't like to brag about it, y'know.

Jones: Well, 'ow did that come about. I mean, 'ow did you become a member?

Mel: Well, I had to fill in a form and all that.

Smith: ... oh yeah?

Mel: Yeah, and, y'know send it off ... er, with a cheque for £300 pounds.

Smith: £300?!

Mel: Yeah, £300.

Smith: A cheque for £300?! Well, they're not stupid, are they?!



SHB

[eighthobstruction]

Couple of observations:

I have no idea about my IQ and I pretty well grew up believing myself to be a bit thick. Possibly it has something to do with the sympathetic smile with which my parents would regard me, but also to do with the fact that at primary school I was consigned for a time to a remedial class for mathematics.

Later, at 'big school' I was regarded as being of a sunny disposition, but not likely to do much by way of academic attainment. Flashing back for a moment my primary school headmistress (one Miss Hunt, a kindly, but starchy figure - a pre-cursor of Clare Balding) advised my mother in a 'what's next for Stephen?' interview that there was no question of my passing the 11+. This would have been '73/74 by which time the comprehensive system was well underway, but still it was being invoked as a bench mark.

My mother's reaction? Entirely one of mutual accord; and, truth be spoken, my grades and the like would give this view some credence.

So, I limped on through 'O' and 'A' levels followed by a degree. A Tutu, of course, though if they'd only asked the right questions and with a following wind I'm sure it would have been a 2:1, but still labouring under the notion that I didn't quite have the brain power of neither my siblings or my ma and pa.

Well, how did I turn out with this Samsonite undertow of residual baggage? Truth be spoken, I've never did acquire leadership of an international bank or corporation, but then again, neither did I drive the same in to the ground. Nor have I ever considered having a stab at brain surgery. Start stabbing around the cerebral regions and it is likely to go horribly wrong. As for my mathematical limitations? Accepted. I have no facility, whatsoever, for calculus, chemistry, physics and all that, but nor have I ever struggled with numeracy which surely IS a bread-and-butter essential of our daily lives.

Coming up to date, my subsequent levels of attainment are, I would say, indicative of 'achiever status', shall we call it? In radio, journalism and photography, I have had my moments, my not-so-minor triumphs. I was even once described as being hyper-intelligent, (I took the money and ran out into the night as fast as I could!), but still, I don't know what my IQ is, and, at this stage in the game, I don't care to know, I don't need to know.

However, this much I do know. As per the article referenced by Am21 in the preceding post, there are now 2,700 bankers at work in the Square Mile whose earnings exceed a million pounds each year (as compared to 212 German bankers and 177 French bankers at the same level, respectively).

Well, to borrow Bold Boris's analogy, we must be looking at an astonishing level of attainment and, ergo, IQ levels that must disappear into the clouds. Possibly, but more likely, we are looking at a banking sector fully gearing itself to revert to its habits of old just as soon as it can so that, in not time at all, we'll have the same gambling addicts back at the tables, playing with other people's cash, yet again.

Now, my track record tells me I'm not quite up there with the Einsteins, but can I say to Boris, I know THICK when I see it and his Gecko-style revivalist spirit looks to me like the real thing.

There's a pop-song of the 1990s, the refrain of which is 'let's go round again'. Actually, Boris, let's not.


In conclusion: the best thing, for my money, that has always illustrated the nonsense of the IQ debate, is a wonderful 'Smith & Jones' sketch when they're are doing their talking heads routine:


Mel: Well, keep it to yourself, but I happen to be, erm ... a member of MENSA.

Jones: Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. You look ok!

Mel: No, no. It's an organisation, a club, like, for people with ... er, exceptionally high IQs.

Jones: ... and that's you is it?

Mel: Yeah, yeah. Course I don't like to brag about it, y'know.

Jones: Well, 'ow did that come about. I mean, 'ow did you become a member?

Mel: Well, I had to fill in a form and all that.

Smith: ... oh yeah?

Mel: Yeah, and, y'know send it off ... er, with a cheque for £300 pounds.

Smith: £300?!

Mel: Yeah, £300.

Smith: A cheque for £300?! Well, they're not stupid, are they?!



SHB

....Totally recognise the gist of your post....with my dyslexia I wrote incredibly good essays, but not answering the question....it takes me an age to find mistakes in my work, let alone correct them (the correction is often a mistake in itself)....but it has instilled in me a lot of empathy for the undetacievers ( [sic]before dyslexic correction)....the less articulate, and the downright 'thick'....I was diagnosed 'sunny disposition' too, also 'charming and cooperative'....tee hee....

....people of Tory position (on R4) have been defending Boris since he opened his mouth....they just do not get/see the converse of his words....or the logistics and opportunity that many lack (which should be obvious to all)....

ed....the only reason I know my IQ is due to tests ref dyslexia....

[Serial_Apologist]

....Totally recognise the gist of your post....with my dyslexia I wrote incredibly good essays, but not answering the question....it takes me an age to find mistakes in my work, let alone correct them (the correction is often a mistake in itself)....but it has instilled in me a lot of empathy for the undetacievers ( [sic]before dyslexic correction)....the less articulate, and the downright 'thick'....I was diagnosed 'sunny disposition' too, also 'charming and cooperative'....tee hee....

....people of Tory position (on R4) have been defending Boris since he opened his mouth....they just do not get/see the converse of his words....or the logistics and opportunity that many lack (which should be obvious to all)....

ed....the only reason I know my IQ is due to tests ref dyslexia....

I've always related better to people of good heart than those of high IQ. High IQ often seems to operate counter-intuitively, nar mean? Or maybe I'm just futilely asserting my superiority.

[eighthobstruction]

Yes Sir....<smile><tugs forelock><intuitive feeling - but not quite sure what it intrincially means to my innerself>

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

High IQ low emotional Q [another nonsense though] would be Gordon Brown eh?

what IQ tetsts measure of any value is educational attainment, the psychologists who create them tend to get very high scores too , what a surprise

Terman followed up a cohort of really high IQ youngsters and found that he had no creative or scientific geniuses in his sample in mid life but ooodles of apparatchiks working to rules and conforming to processes ... genius has a much rougher edge

the people with the highest IQs that i know of in business, where i did see data on many thousands over the years, were Chemical Engineers ... Accountants and Finance had the lowest ... Human Resources [Personnel in them days] were not the highest scorers ....

if you want to read about the research on high IQ people George Vaillant's life work has produced several fascinating volumes see also


the point is us cornflakes are in for it, them spoons is getting vicious

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

telling it as it is when you are poor

[amateur51]

telling it as it is when you are poor

I was involved in working with street homeless people about budgetting decisions at one time and we came to similar conclusions - on a Friday night, with no more money until Tuesday, do you choose to go to the launderette to keep yourself looking good in case a job interview comes along, or do you have a can of beer and a bag of chips which you can offer to share with a friend?

[Mr Pee]

I was involved in working with street homeless people about budgetting decisions at one time and we came to similar conclusions - on a Friday night, with no more money until Tuesday, do you choose to go to the launderette to keep yourself looking good in case a job interview comes along, or do you have a can of beer and a bag of chips which you can offer to share with a friend?

The first of those two options, obviously.