Poppies and the "Heroes Industry" ?

[ahinton]

There's nothing intrinsically democratic about the views of a small proportion of the voting-age population of a society turning itself into a baying mob, Mr Pee - get real.

No, indeed, but what is democratic is that these people are given, rather than denied, a voice by the government; that in no wise excuses their views themselves but it does allow their expression, just as it allows the expression of opposing views.

[Mr Pee]

go on, you know you want to, tell us how democracy works.

Tell us how it works here, with our hopeless voting system and Banksters control(and the politicians in their pockets), tell us how it works in the US where 50% vote, tell us how it is in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Tell us how its getting on in Russia.

But in your own time, obviously.

Well it is certainly getting there in Iraq and Afghanistan, compared to the situation in both those countries a few years ago, an improvement that is due in large part to the work undertaken by brave soldiers such as Sgt.Blackman and his colleagues.

Our "hopeless voting system" is the system we have. I bet you wouldn't be complaining about it if it delivered a Liberal government. And you seem to have forgotten that just two years ago a referendum to replace first past the post with the alternative vote system was 70/30 in favour of retaining the status quo.

As for low voter turnout in the USA and elsewhere, blame the apathetic voters who can't be bothered to trog down the road to their local polling station. That's hardly a fault of the system.

And as for Russia- and indeed most of the other places you mentioned in your post- do tell me what any of that has to do with an e-petition for clemency in the UK.

Go on, you know you want to. In your own time.

[Mr Pee]

Do you therefore believe that democracy and the rule of law and judicial process are somehow potentially incompatible? That seems to me to be a most curious stance to adopt when the law and the practice of justice is so fundamental a cornerstone of democracy, but perhaps you can explain the background to your view here.

Your next post has just anwered the question:-

No, indeed, but what is democratic is that these people are given, rather than denied, a voice by the government; that in no wise excuses their views themselves but it does allow their expression, just as it allows the expression of opposing views.

Thanks for saving me the bother.

[Mr Pee]

There's nothing intrinsically democratic about the views of a small proportion of the voting-age population of a society turning itself into a baying mob, Mr Pee - get real.

Well you should know. One could say the same about the small proportion of the voting-age population who continually bang on about gay rights.

[Beef Oven!]

Do you believe that he should be released immediately and his conviction quashed

No, he never said that, you're being childish. What it is, is a warning that a government should be cognisant of what its people think. That's to say, when it clearly has an eye on a particular audience, the one to be appeased in this case, it should not ignore what the majority of people think. This, erroneously, has been part of the rationale that you and other homosexualists have used in the recent discussions on same sex marriage. I think some consistency is required.

[Beef Oven!]

Well you should know, given your recent attacks on FF.

All part of the hypocrisy MrPee. They attack the government, the military, the country, but they're first in line to collect the dole-out benefits from the very same body they hate. It's a horrible affliction they have.

[amateur51]

Well you should know. One could say the same about the small proportion of the voting-age population who continually bang on about gay rights.

Banging on through Parliamentary process since the 1950s I think you meant to say, flower.

You also make the classic mistake of thinking that only LGBTI people are interested in LGBTI rights - these people all have parents, most have brothers, sisters, cousins, some have children too. We also have friends, why it's a whole community of support.

At this stage of the game, people who write as you do are in the minority and as ahinton says, I'll defend your right to say what you think but I don't have to agree with it.

[MrGongGong]

the work undertaken by brave soldiers such as Sgt.Blackman and his colleagues.

.

Well the certainly hits the nail on the head does't it !

There in nothing 'brave' about shooting a seriously injured man at point blank range in full knowledge of the illegality of the act.
TO somehow pretend that it's OK as he is one of 'our brave lads' is utterly ridiculous.
They really did mess with your head peester , and i'm sorry that you have been so f*cked up by it

Once we start to stop seeing crimes like this as somehow justified then we might start to have some ethical integrity. To see everything as a false duality between 'good' and 'bad' is very foolish indeed.

[Mr Pee]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/10503118/Killer-marine-given-special-protection-in-jail-amid-Islamist-attack-fears.html

[teamsaint]

Well it is certainly getting there in Iraq and Afghanistan, compared to the situation in both those countries a few years ago, an improvement that is due in large part to the work undertaken by brave soldiers such as Sgt.Blackman and his colleagues.

Our "hopeless voting system" is the system we have. I bet you wouldn't be complaining about it if it delivered a Liberal government. And you seem to have forgotten that just two years ago a referendum to replace first past the post with the alternative vote system was 70/30 in favour of retaining the status quo.

As for low voter turnout in the USA and elsewhere, blame the apathetic voters who can't be bothered to trog down the road to their local polling station. That's hardly a fault of the system.

And as for Russia- and indeed most of the other places you mentioned in your post- do tell me what any of that has to do with an e-petition for clemency in the UK.

Go on, you know you want to. In your own time.

you are the one who brought democracy into the discussion.

I couldn't give two hoots about liberal/Labour governments. Both have proved to be in the pockets of the banks. Check out blair's CV and war record.
But a decent voting system, one that people would actually use in increasing numbers, and where most votes actually counted, would be good.

Iraq, Afghanistan. Moved forward? really? since when? Since we invaded Iraq causing the deaths of at least 100,000 people?

Oh, as for "voter apathy", why do you think they are apathetic?

[MrGongGong]

Don't be daft teams !
it's the brave 'work' that our lads are doing that is bringing these savages into the fold :yikes:
and if they don't agree we can always put a 'brave' bullet in the chest until everyone agrees with us !

That's the way of the 'hero' innit :dispair:

[ahinton]

Your next post has just anwered the question:-

Thanks for saving me the bother.

It doesn't at all and I've saved you no bother because you can't apparently be bothered to answer and I didn't really expect you to anyway.

[ahinton]

Well it is certainly getting there in Iraq and Afghanistan, compared to the situation in both those countries a few years ago, an improvement that is due in large part to the work undertaken by brave soldiers such as Sgt.Blackman and his colleagues.

Precisely what is getting where in those countries? Afghanistan in particular has already a parlous history of unsuccessful invasion and interference by the Russians long before the present conflict of the past 12 or so years and, when the US, UK and other tropps finally quite the placve, with what will the Afghans be let? - and what guarantees will there be that, for example, the Russians might not start their aggressive interference again (and, if they did, Afghanistan would be no better prepared to deal with it than it was 35 years ago).

Our "hopeless voting system" is the system we have. I bet you wouldn't be complaining about it if it delivered a Liberal government. And you seem to have forgotten that just two years ago a referendum to replace first past the post with the alternative vote system was 70/30 in favour of retaining the status quo.

Our voting system in UK is far from ideal. I do not think that some of the previously alternatives would in practice be much more successful either. The problem is that, whatever system is in place, if too many people distrust too many parties, it will risk failing to deliver.

As for low voter turnout in the USA and elsewhere, blame the apathetic voters who can't be bothered to trog down the road to their local polling station. That's hardly a fault of the system.

Indeed not - but it is in large part a failure of the individual parties if they cannot provide sufficient voted encouragement. Would you vote for a party in which you could muster little trust? - and if you could find little about any of them to trust, would you vote at all?

And as for Russia- and indeed most of the other places you mentioned in your post- do tell me what any of that has to do with an e-petition for clemency in the UK.

Did anyone suggest that it does?

The fact remains that an e-petition for clemency in this case is fine insofar as it goes (in terms of its representation of democracy in practice) but, on the other hand, it also exposes the numbers of people whose distrust of due judicial process is such that they appear to have little if any faith in a supposedly democratic government within whose operation the judicial system of the day can risk delivering results of which they disapprove.

[ahinton]

No, he never said that, you're being childish.

Rubbish. I did not write that he said anything of the kind; indeed, as I do not know for sure what he thinks about this, I asked him. That said, he has indicated that he supports and has signed the petition and that is what the petition calls for.

What it is, is a warning that a government should be cognisant of what its people think. That's to say, when it clearly has an eye on a particular audience, the one to be appeased in this case, it should not ignore what the majority of people think. This, erroneously, has been part of the rationale that you and other homosexualists have used in the recent discussions on same sex marriage. I think some consistency is required.

Homosexualists? Leaving aside the pleonastic absurdity of the term (suggesting as it does the existence and practice of some kind of same sex "profession"), what makes you think (if indeed you do) that I am a homosexual? - and what in any case does homosexuality have to do with this subject under discussion here?

Yes, you are right that the government should not ignore what its voters think (or claim to think), regardless of whether they should or should not think it, but that's why the petition exists; that does not of itself mean that what the petition calls for constitutes a call for justice and a tacit allegation that the opposite of justice has so far been dispensed in this case; the millions who have not signed it presumably share that view. If indeed what the petition calls for is wholly just, the entire charging, trial, conviction and sentencing of this murderer would be untenable and he could sue the judiciary for its treatment of him.

[ahinton]

All part of the hypocrisy MrPee. They attack the government, the military, the country, but they're first in line to collect the dole-out benefits from the very same body they hate. It's a horrible affliction they have.

Who's "they"? I don't for example, see anyone attacking the judicial system here. Furthermore, insofar as some attack the military, it is at least in part on account of the lack of due support that it provides to its personnel that may in part have contributed some responsbility for the situation in which the murder was enabled to take place (which is not to defend it in any way - all that I'm saying here is that the murderer himself may not be the only guilty party)...